Is your objection the assertion that authority figures have “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility” at all? Or do you assert that other values will often override them?
If the former, I suggest that Tywin Lannister seems like he does have those three qualities. It’s just that he also has a bunch of jerkwad values. (if you aren’t familiar with Song of Ice and Fire, I’ll come up with a different example). And I think he’s a reasonable representation of many actual authority figures.
Is your objection the assertion that authority figures have “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility” at all?
I personally think that it’s certainly possible for an authority figure to have all these qualities. The probability of this happening is nonzero. However, it’s much more likely that the authority figure possesses ambition, ruthlessness, and a lust for power. Generally, one does not become an authority merely by being wise and nice to everyone.
I’d actually expect a substantial number of authority figures to carry both those sets of qualities: the OP’s make seeking and maintaining authority a lot more viable in a situation where anyone is even halfway good at judging honesty, and there are clear motivational reasons for yours. The only ones that could be said to interfere with each other are “good will” and “ruthlessness”, and I don’t think even those are fully incompatible.
I disagree with TimS’s reply. As I see it, people who seek power in the first place rarely do so for entirely selfless reasons. And even if they do seek power and somehow acquire it, they must still hang on to it, fending off assaults from the occasional competitor who cares about nothing but power for its own sake. In that kind of environment, only the most efficient optimizers survive.
You posit an environment where people are “even halfway good at judging honesty”, but I don’t know of any places on Earth where that is actually the case (though I do admit that they can exist).
TimS says that the best way to signal “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility” is to actually have those qualities, and maybe that’s true (unless your opponent is running attack ads, of course). But there’s a very high cost associated with having things like “good will” and “responsibility”. Signaling these virtues without actually having them is harder, but it’s probably worth it in the long run, as long as your goal is to acquire power and keep it.
It was the point I was trying to make, which seemed to be missing in the wedrifid/Porter discussion.
More generally, it’s quite hard to become influential (even in non-democratic societies) without signalling that you have “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility.” And the easiest way to signal that you have those virtues is to actually have them. Which isn’t to say that your bad qualities (ambition, ruthlessness, and a lust for power) don’t frequently outweigh them.
The only ones that could be said to interfere with each other are “good will” and “ruthlessness”, and I don’t think even those are fully incompatible.
Focusing on one’s narrow interests (lust for power?) conflicts fairly strongly with my understanding of “sense of responsibility.” YMMV
If the former, I suggest that Tywin Lannister seems like he does have those three qualities. It’s just that he also has a bunch of jerkwad values. (if you aren’t familiar with Song of Ice and Fire, I’ll come up with a different example). And I think he’s a reasonable representation of many actual authority figures.
I’ve picked up enough from popular culture to get the general picture. I haven’t read or watched the series—I tend to be biased towards stories with with a clear character I can identify with. It’s fantasy escapism—I don’t want all this sophisticated moral murkiness. :)
I tend to be biased towards stories with with a clear character I can identify with.
I humbly suggest reading the series; there are clear characters for a range of values. Gregor Clegane is a stand-out example. They spend much of their time chopping the heads off of the morally murky characters, too!
I humbly suggest reading the series; there are clear characters for a range of values. Gregor Clegane is a stand-out example. They spend much of their time chopping the heads off of the morally murky characters, too!
I’m sure I’ll get around to it eventually. I must admit though, even my dark side doesn’t go quite so far as to empathize strongly with drug addicted child killing rapists. Raping a mother while the blood and brains of her slaughtered child are still on his hands—that guy really does take things to extremes!
Yes. He has a very logical mindset, though. “My horse failed me --> decapitate my horse” is one such example.
The ‘use a mare in heat’ was a good idea. I wonder if that would actually work. If so I wonder if they ever made a rule about it. It wouldn’t at all surprise me if some medieval Tim Ferris gamed Jousting systems in ways like this and outraged enough nobles that they made this kind of trick a capital offense.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Crusaders ran into trouble with this. The Europeans favored stallions (stronger and more intimidating); the Saracens favored mares (faster and easier to control); the combination didn’t work out well for the Europeans.
Is your objection the assertion that authority figures have “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility” at all? Or do you assert that other values will often override them?
If the former, I suggest that Tywin Lannister seems like he does have those three qualities. It’s just that he also has a bunch of jerkwad values. (if you aren’t familiar with Song of Ice and Fire, I’ll come up with a different example). And I think he’s a reasonable representation of many actual authority figures.
I personally think that it’s certainly possible for an authority figure to have all these qualities. The probability of this happening is nonzero. However, it’s much more likely that the authority figure possesses ambition, ruthlessness, and a lust for power. Generally, one does not become an authority merely by being wise and nice to everyone.
I’d actually expect a substantial number of authority figures to carry both those sets of qualities: the OP’s make seeking and maintaining authority a lot more viable in a situation where anyone is even halfway good at judging honesty, and there are clear motivational reasons for yours. The only ones that could be said to interfere with each other are “good will” and “ruthlessness”, and I don’t think even those are fully incompatible.
Or was that the point you were trying to make?
I disagree with TimS’s reply. As I see it, people who seek power in the first place rarely do so for entirely selfless reasons. And even if they do seek power and somehow acquire it, they must still hang on to it, fending off assaults from the occasional competitor who cares about nothing but power for its own sake. In that kind of environment, only the most efficient optimizers survive.
You posit an environment where people are “even halfway good at judging honesty”, but I don’t know of any places on Earth where that is actually the case (though I do admit that they can exist).
TimS says that the best way to signal “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility” is to actually have those qualities, and maybe that’s true (unless your opponent is running attack ads, of course). But there’s a very high cost associated with having things like “good will” and “responsibility”. Signaling these virtues without actually having them is harder, but it’s probably worth it in the long run, as long as your goal is to acquire power and keep it.
It was the point I was trying to make, which seemed to be missing in the wedrifid/Porter discussion.
More generally, it’s quite hard to become influential (even in non-democratic societies) without signalling that you have “common sense, good will, and a sense of responsibility.” And the easiest way to signal that you have those virtues is to actually have them. Which isn’t to say that your bad qualities (ambition, ruthlessness, and a lust for power) don’t frequently outweigh them.
Focusing on one’s narrow interests (lust for power?) conflicts fairly strongly with my understanding of “sense of responsibility.” YMMV
I’ve picked up enough from popular culture to get the general picture. I haven’t read or watched the series—I tend to be biased towards stories with with a clear character I can identify with. It’s fantasy escapism—I don’t want all this sophisticated moral murkiness. :)
I humbly suggest reading the series; there are clear characters for a range of values. Gregor Clegane is a stand-out example. They spend much of their time chopping the heads off of the morally murky characters, too!
I’m sure I’ll get around to it eventually. I must admit though, even my dark side doesn’t go quite so far as to empathize strongly with drug addicted child killing rapists. Raping a mother while the blood and brains of her slaughtered child are still on his hands—that guy really does take things to extremes!
Yes. He has a very logical mindset, though. “My horse failed me --> decapitate my horse” is one such example.
The ‘use a mare in heat’ was a good idea. I wonder if that would actually work. If so I wonder if they ever made a rule about it. It wouldn’t at all surprise me if some medieval Tim Ferris gamed Jousting systems in ways like this and outraged enough nobles that they made this kind of trick a capital offense.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Crusaders ran into trouble with this. The Europeans favored stallions (stronger and more intimidating); the Saracens favored mares (faster and easier to control); the combination didn’t work out well for the Europeans.