I switched from veganism to eating small amounts of pasture raised meat for these reasons.
The lives of well treated livestock do seem to be a net positive and considerably better on average than those of wild animals. Less stress, less suffering, quick and painless death.
There are some arguments for reforesting/rewilding pasture land, but even if this were done populations of large herbivores still need to be controlled.
One way to do this is reintroduce wolves, which I’m not against, but I still think death by human is the more humane option.
It doesn’t many much sense to me to say it’s bad for humans to kill and eat animals humanely so instead condemn them to be torn apart by wolves!
Wolves don’t seem to have any capability to morally introspect. Do you agree with this?
If you do, it seems silly to expect them to behave morally. Humans, on the other hand, can behave morally, at least on average.
There is no such thing as “well-treated livestock.” If you think this is incorrect, devise a livestock method behind the veil of ignorance and share it here. But generally murder is not well-treatment. Rape is not well-treatment. If you were a farmed animal, you would have been murdered at the age of seven, extrapolating from the average age of farmed animal murder as a percentage of lifespan. Do you think it is okay to murder a seven-year-old assuming it is painless? If you were murdered at seven, would you consider it a life well-lived? Would you prefer to be slaughtered “painlessly” at age seven, or perhaps live longer and be killed by wolves?
Not to be inflammatory, but I don’t believe that the reasons for your abandoning veganism actually were these. It is far too convenient. You probably just wanted to taste meat again. If you have some health excuse, I recommend blending your meat into a tasteless, drinkable slurry to avoid these arguments—and if you really did abandon veganism simply because you’re hopeless about the wild animal’s suffering, you should be happy to do this! If it isn’t about your ability to eat meat, that is. If it is, you should be honest and say you abandoned veganism because you enjoy the taste of blood in your mouth.
If you were murdered at seven, would you consider it a life well-lived?
No, but that’s because you’re sneaking in extra connotations in “a life well-lived”: those words implicitly compare to the current distribution of human lives, and most humans get to live much longer than seven. Let’s replace those words by the actual issue here: “If you were murdered at seven, would you consider your life as a whole better than not having existed at all?”; my answer becomes yes.
Would you prefer to be slaughtered “painlessly” at age seven, or perhaps live longer and be killed by wolves?
No, but that’s because you’ve completely ignored the quality-of-life angle. “Well-treated livestock” would be fed and sheltered and never fear wolves their whole lives; the difference isn’t only the age at which they’re killed. Now maybe you think their life isn’t more pleasant, or that living a longer and less pleasant life is still better than a shorter pleasant one, but the way you’ve phrased the question ignores those issues.
I switched from veganism to eating small amounts of pasture raised meat for these reasons.
The lives of well treated livestock do seem to be a net positive and considerably better on average than those of wild animals. Less stress, less suffering, quick and painless death.
There are some arguments for reforesting/rewilding pasture land, but even if this were done populations of large herbivores still need to be controlled.
One way to do this is reintroduce wolves, which I’m not against, but I still think death by human is the more humane option.
It doesn’t many much sense to me to say it’s bad for humans to kill and eat animals humanely so instead condemn them to be torn apart by wolves!
Wolves don’t seem to have any capability to morally introspect. Do you agree with this?
If you do, it seems silly to expect them to behave morally. Humans, on the other hand, can behave morally, at least on average.
There is no such thing as “well-treated livestock.” If you think this is incorrect, devise a livestock method behind the veil of ignorance and share it here. But generally murder is not well-treatment. Rape is not well-treatment. If you were a farmed animal, you would have been murdered at the age of seven, extrapolating from the average age of farmed animal murder as a percentage of lifespan. Do you think it is okay to murder a seven-year-old assuming it is painless? If you were murdered at seven, would you consider it a life well-lived? Would you prefer to be slaughtered “painlessly” at age seven, or perhaps live longer and be killed by wolves?
Not to be inflammatory, but I don’t believe that the reasons for your abandoning veganism actually were these. It is far too convenient. You probably just wanted to taste meat again. If you have some health excuse, I recommend blending your meat into a tasteless, drinkable slurry to avoid these arguments—and if you really did abandon veganism simply because you’re hopeless about the wild animal’s suffering, you should be happy to do this! If it isn’t about your ability to eat meat, that is. If it is, you should be honest and say you abandoned veganism because you enjoy the taste of blood in your mouth.
Are you a wolf? Come on.
No, but that’s because you’re sneaking in extra connotations in “a life well-lived”: those words implicitly compare to the current distribution of human lives, and most humans get to live much longer than seven. Let’s replace those words by the actual issue here: “If you were murdered at seven, would you consider your life as a whole better than not having existed at all?”; my answer becomes yes.
No, but that’s because you’ve completely ignored the quality-of-life angle. “Well-treated livestock” would be fed and sheltered and never fear wolves their whole lives; the difference isn’t only the age at which they’re killed. Now maybe you think their life isn’t more pleasant, or that living a longer and less pleasant life is still better than a shorter pleasant one, but the way you’ve phrased the question ignores those issues.