I mean that language’s lack of tools is language’s arrogance.
I’m still not sure what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that all languages should make all possible tools available ?
It was a clarification to some specific phrase in my previous comment. The original phrase answers both your questions. I specifically said that it can be lack of resources or competence, not only arrogance. And this is specifically about tools that allow you to tailor the language to your specific task, so that there are no problems with language that you are prohibited from solving. Somebody can always write a bluetooth library.
certain essential things that are easy to do with assembly that are harder to do with C: for example, balancing your branches so that every iteration of the main loop takes the same number of cycles
This is not essential for many applications, even with what is now called microcontrollers. Learning optimization on that level is something you can do while having a good grasp of other concepts already.
If you were a person who only knew Scheme, how would you explain “what type inference gives you”, and why it’s useful ?
Type inference allows you to write with strict typechecks and catch some kinds of errors without cluttering the code with type specifications for every variable.
And this is specifically about tools that allow you to tailor the language to your specific task, so that there are no problems with language that you are prohibited from solving. Somebody can always write a bluetooth library.
That makes sense, and I do wish that more languages supported more capabilities, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect all languages to support all, or even most, or even some large fraction of real-world tasks that are out there. There are vastly more tasks than there are languages: graphics (raster, vector, and 3d, on various systems), sound, desktop user interfaces, bluetooth, TCP/IP networking, bio-sequence alignment, finance, distributed computation, HTML parsing and rendering, SQL access… and that’s just the stuff I’d had to handle this month !
Learning optimization on that level is something you can do while having a good grasp of other concepts already.
I think the opposite is true: performing this kind of optimization (even on a “toy” program) is exactly the kind of task that can help you internalize those concepts.
Type inference allows you to write with strict typechecks and catch some kinds of errors without cluttering the code with type specifications for every variable.
I agree with you there, but I’ll play Devil’s Advocate, in my attempt to adopt the perspective of someone who only knows Scheme. So, can you give me an example of some Scheme code where the strict typechecks you mentioned are truly helpful ? To me (or, rather, my Schemer’s Advocate persona) this sounds inelegant. In Scheme, most entities are pairs, or data structures built of pairs, anyway. Sure, there are a few primitives, but why should I worry about 5 being different from 5.0 or “5” ? That sounds like a job for the interpreter.
That makes sense, and I do wish that more languages supported more capabilities, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect all languages to support all, or even most, or even some large fraction of real-world tasks that are out there
You didn’t understand my point correctly. Language per se should not support directly, say, bluetooth—because bluetooth will change in an incompatible way. Language could live without a bluetooth library—why not, there is always FFI for dire cases. But the question is about allowing to define a nice API if a need arises. More or less any metaprogramming tool that is not constrained in what it can create would do—those who want to use it, will wrap it in a layer that is nice to use, you can then just incorporate their work.
Common Lisp didn’t have any object system in the first edition of the standard; CLOS was prototyped using macros, documented, and then this documentation was basically included in standard. Of couse, macro use could be somewhat more clumsy or more explicit for any reason (make it easier to control overuse, for example) - this is not a problem. The problem is there when you have zero ways to do something—for example, to define a non-trivial iteration pattern.
So, can you give me an example of some Scheme code where the strict typechecks you mentioned are truly helpful ? To me (or, rather, my Schemer’s Advocate persona) this sounds inelegant. In Scheme, most entities are pairs, or data structures built of pairs, anyway. Sure, there are a few primitives, but why should I worry about 5 being different from 5.0 or “5” ? That sounds like a job for the interpreter.
Sorry? I was talking about things that help to catch errors. In any small snippet the errors are simple enough to find for this to be unillustrative. It only helps you when you have some kind of wrong assignment in 1K+LOC.
It was a clarification to some specific phrase in my previous comment. The original phrase answers both your questions. I specifically said that it can be lack of resources or competence, not only arrogance. And this is specifically about tools that allow you to tailor the language to your specific task, so that there are no problems with language that you are prohibited from solving. Somebody can always write a bluetooth library.
This is not essential for many applications, even with what is now called microcontrollers. Learning optimization on that level is something you can do while having a good grasp of other concepts already.
Type inference allows you to write with strict typechecks and catch some kinds of errors without cluttering the code with type specifications for every variable.
That makes sense, and I do wish that more languages supported more capabilities, but I think it’s unrealistic to expect all languages to support all, or even most, or even some large fraction of real-world tasks that are out there. There are vastly more tasks than there are languages: graphics (raster, vector, and 3d, on various systems), sound, desktop user interfaces, bluetooth, TCP/IP networking, bio-sequence alignment, finance, distributed computation, HTML parsing and rendering, SQL access… and that’s just the stuff I’d had to handle this month !
I think the opposite is true: performing this kind of optimization (even on a “toy” program) is exactly the kind of task that can help you internalize those concepts.
I agree with you there, but I’ll play Devil’s Advocate, in my attempt to adopt the perspective of someone who only knows Scheme. So, can you give me an example of some Scheme code where the strict typechecks you mentioned are truly helpful ? To me (or, rather, my Schemer’s Advocate persona) this sounds inelegant. In Scheme, most entities are pairs, or data structures built of pairs, anyway. Sure, there are a few primitives, but why should I worry about 5 being different from 5.0 or “5” ? That sounds like a job for the interpreter.
You didn’t understand my point correctly. Language per se should not support directly, say, bluetooth—because bluetooth will change in an incompatible way. Language could live without a bluetooth library—why not, there is always FFI for dire cases. But the question is about allowing to define a nice API if a need arises. More or less any metaprogramming tool that is not constrained in what it can create would do—those who want to use it, will wrap it in a layer that is nice to use, you can then just incorporate their work.
Common Lisp didn’t have any object system in the first edition of the standard; CLOS was prototyped using macros, documented, and then this documentation was basically included in standard. Of couse, macro use could be somewhat more clumsy or more explicit for any reason (make it easier to control overuse, for example) - this is not a problem. The problem is there when you have zero ways to do something—for example, to define a non-trivial iteration pattern.
Sorry? I was talking about things that help to catch errors. In any small snippet the errors are simple enough to find for this to be unillustrative. It only helps you when you have some kind of wrong assignment in 1K+LOC.