The failures of communism must also have soured a lot of people on “progress”, given that it fit really well into the old philosophy of progress and then turned out really badly. (See this related comment.)
How can we make moral and social progress at least as fast as we make scientific, technological and industrial progress? How do we prevent our capabilities from outrunning our wisdom?
This seems to be the key to everything else, but it may just be impossible. It seems pretty likely that moral and social progress are just inherently harder problems, given that you can’t do controlled experiments nor have fast feedback cycles from reality (like you do when trying to make scientific, technological and industrial progress).
I would say there were two distinct “progressive” worldwiews in the 19th century. The symbol of the bourgeois progressivism may be Exposition Universelle of 1889, the symbol of the proletarian progressivism the Paris Commune. Two events, same place, 18 years apart. The former with all the wonderful machines etc., the latter with the barricades and soldiers shooting the survivors. The two worldviews, being that distinct and held by different people, it’s not clear to me whether the failures of the social progress school led to the souring towards the technical progress.
It seems pretty likely that moral and social progress are just inherently harder problems, given that you can’t [...] have fast feedback cycles from reality (like you do when trying to make scientific, technological and industrial progress).
We can’t? Have we tried? Have you tried? Is there some law of physics I’m missing? What would a real, genuine attempt to do just that even look like? Would you recognize it if it was done right in front of you?
The thing you are missing, I think, is the nature of common knowedge which underpins the society. Thanks to how it works, people can’t achieve moral/societal progress individually. If you live in a violent society you can’t get less violent by yourself. If you do, you’d get killed. If you live in a corrupt society you can’t get less corrupt all by yourself. If you do, you’d be in disadvantage to all the corrupt people. The society can progress only as a whole, thus the limit on the speed of progress is determined by the speed in which the majority is able to change their attitude (get less violent, corrupt etc.) And given how unlikely an average person is to change their attitude the social progress may move one funeral at a time.
Yes, I’m aware of all that, and I agree with your premises, but your argument doesn’t prove what you think it does. Let’s try to reductio it ad absurdum, and turn the same argument against the possibility of fast technological or scientific feedback cycles.
If you live in a technologically backwards society (think bronze age), you can’t become more advanced technologically yourself, because you’ll starve spending your time trying to do science. The technology of society (including agriculture, communication, tools, etc.) needs to progress as a whole. If you live in a scientifically backwards society, you can’t have more accurate beliefs, because you’ll be burned at the stake by all the people believing in nonsense. Therefore, science and technology can only progress as fast as the majority can adopt it.
And all of the above is true, actually, up to a certain point in history. But once the scientific understanding of society advances to the point where it understands that science is a thing and has a basic understanding of how science works, it can basically create a mesa-feedback-loop. Similarly, once you have technologies like writing and free market capitalism, suddenly it’s possible to set up a tech company, sell something worthwhile and in exchange not starve.
And that’s the frame for my original comment. I didn’t mean to imply that a fast moral feedback loop would involve a single person going on some meditation retreat that is somehow a clever feedback loop in disguise and then come back more moral or whatnot. I think it is possible that there is some innovation, moral or social or otherwise (e.g. a common understanding of common knowledge), that would enable the creation of fast moral and social feedback loops.
So the question, again: what are the necessary conditions for such a feedback loop? Are they present? What would it look like? How would you recognize it if it was happening right in front of you?
The failures of communism must also have soured a lot of people on “progress”, given that it fit really well into the old philosophy of progress and then turned out really badly. (See this related comment.)
This seems to be the key to everything else, but it may just be impossible. It seems pretty likely that moral and social progress are just inherently harder problems, given that you can’t do controlled experiments nor have fast feedback cycles from reality (like you do when trying to make scientific, technological and industrial progress).
I would say there were two distinct “progressive” worldwiews in the 19th century. The symbol of the bourgeois progressivism may be Exposition Universelle of 1889, the symbol of the proletarian progressivism the Paris Commune. Two events, same place, 18 years apart. The former with all the wonderful machines etc., the latter with the barricades and soldiers shooting the survivors. The two worldviews, being that distinct and held by different people, it’s not clear to me whether the failures of the social progress school led to the souring towards the technical progress.
We can’t? Have we tried? Have you tried? Is there some law of physics I’m missing? What would a real, genuine attempt to do just that even look like? Would you recognize it if it was done right in front of you?
The thing you are missing, I think, is the nature of common knowedge which underpins the society. Thanks to how it works, people can’t achieve moral/societal progress individually. If you live in a violent society you can’t get less violent by yourself. If you do, you’d get killed. If you live in a corrupt society you can’t get less corrupt all by yourself. If you do, you’d be in disadvantage to all the corrupt people. The society can progress only as a whole, thus the limit on the speed of progress is determined by the speed in which the majority is able to change their attitude (get less violent, corrupt etc.) And given how unlikely an average person is to change their attitude the social progress may move one funeral at a time.
Yes, I’m aware of all that, and I agree with your premises, but your argument doesn’t prove what you think it does. Let’s try to reductio it ad absurdum, and turn the same argument against the possibility of fast technological or scientific feedback cycles.
If you live in a technologically backwards society (think bronze age), you can’t become more advanced technologically yourself, because you’ll starve spending your time trying to do science. The technology of society (including agriculture, communication, tools, etc.) needs to progress as a whole. If you live in a scientifically backwards society, you can’t have more accurate beliefs, because you’ll be burned at the stake by all the people believing in nonsense. Therefore, science and technology can only progress as fast as the majority can adopt it.
And all of the above is true, actually, up to a certain point in history. But once the scientific understanding of society advances to the point where it understands that science is a thing and has a basic understanding of how science works, it can basically create a mesa-feedback-loop. Similarly, once you have technologies like writing and free market capitalism, suddenly it’s possible to set up a tech company, sell something worthwhile and in exchange not starve.
And that’s the frame for my original comment. I didn’t mean to imply that a fast moral feedback loop would involve a single person going on some meditation retreat that is somehow a clever feedback loop in disguise and then come back more moral or whatnot. I think it is possible that there is some innovation, moral or social or otherwise (e.g. a common understanding of common knowledge), that would enable the creation of fast moral and social feedback loops.
So the question, again: what are the necessary conditions for such a feedback loop? Are they present? What would it look like? How would you recognize it if it was happening right in front of you?
(EDIT: spelling)
If the above is true, an interesting consequence would be that social progress may slow down as the average length of life increases.
Yes, but you can change systems to make it harder for people to be corrupt.
You can fund investigative journalism. You can push for organizations to adopt structures that increase transparency.