It’s (relatively) easy to handwave into being prohibitions on theft—pretty much every society dislikes it and you can posit both morality and anti-theft magics as making outright thieving to be not too useful for wizards.
On the other hand trade is generally seen as good and there are huge and obvious benefits to trade between Muggles and wizards. Especially given how easy it would be for less scrupulous wizards to make sure the terms of trade are very very beneficial to them (and yet do not descend into outright theft).
I’m not sure the problem is solvable without introducing major new mechanisms of how the world works.
Many, many post-agricultural societies have restrained trade, often to particular privileged individuals. I believe this is what a ‘patent’ used to be.
Many, many post-agricultural societies have restrained trade, often to particular privileged individuals.
Yes, but notice what this implies. This implies that trade is such an awesome value-producing mechanism that we (=elites with political power) want to keep it for ourselves and our friends.
The idea is not to forbid trade, the idea is to restrict access and thus collect what the econospeak calls rents. Everyone wants to be a gatekeeper at a fountain of gold.
This usually requires that the person holding the patent provide enough trade to satisfy demand. Otherwise the pressure to create a black market is irresistible. So trade could be restricted to a few powerful wizards—perhaps to each wizarding government—but it could not be eliminated entirely.
And since wizards can provide extremely valuable services to Muggles in trade, they would capture almost all the Muggle gold in return. Then we would observe wizarding billionaires, making fortunes of a 100,000 Galleons negligible in comparison. That we don’t observe this is strong evidence that trade either doesn’t exist at all or is universal and unrestricted. Since the story offers ample proof that trade isn’t universal, it must be nonexistent. But it’s not clear what is preventing trade.
Wizarding culture. Trade with muggles was basically worthless until a single wizard’s lifetime ago, so the prejudice hasn’t had time to evolve away yet.
I recall reading that somewhere (maybe Pottermore?), Rowling said that the Malfoys gained their great family wealth by trade with muggles, until the establishment of the statute of secrecy, at which point they were quick to join the “Yep, we knew those dirty muggles just wanted to exploit and burn us all along!” crowd. I don’t remember if there is any similar detail about other wealthy families in canon or MoR; there’s Flamel with the Philosopher’s Stone, and the Potters with a combination family inheritance/bounty on Voldemort, but the Malfoys appear to be decidedly the richest family in Magical Britain, and I’d imagine that even with a 400 year gap, being those to most thoroughly exploit trade with muggles would be more than sufficient to explain their success.
Muggles had a lot of gold a hundred years ago, too. Certainly if you count in terms of just a few wizards taking possession of it. And it was easier to find because currencies were gold-backed.
If they were unwilling to just steal it (for whatever reason), then spending a few weeks performing services for the richest people in the world in exchange for half their wealth (amounting to many millions of Galleons) would have been a great bargain for wizards.
On the other hand trade is generally seen as good and there are huge and obvious benefits to trade between Muggles and wizards.
The mutual benefits of trade are non-obvious to humans, and many cultures have seen merchants as low-status because of a naive notion that they don’t contribute anything.
In most societies, there was no remotely adequate solution to the problems of tracking reputations and punishing violations of trust for merchants who operated outside the narrow circle of their own communities. So merchants were largely viewed as scammers because they mostly were; nothing naive about it.
Second thought: of course dishonest merchants exist, but it’s also true that merchants upset static status arrangements like controlling land being the only important thing.
I don’t think this is historically true. Humans actively traded since paleolithic times (there are archeological finds like amber far away inland or stone tools made out of stone that does not occur anywhere locally).
Merchants were typically seen as of lower status than the nobles and the military (for rather obvious reasons), but of higher status than craftsmen and peasants.
I think even simpler than this is the fact that the wizards don’t have anything of worth to trade to the Muggles, since non-magical people have a hard time even seeing magical artifacts, much less using them.
Muggles have plenty of things that would be useful to Wizards, but the reverse isn’t true.
Wizards have plenty to trade to Muggles—by providing services, not products.
Magical cures to deadly diseases and accidents. A replicable cure can’t be traded, but wizards can individually cure powerful and wealthy people. (Harry speculates that wizards would probably cure cancer in members of the Muggle government.)
Military and covert operations, assassinations, coups, revolutions, etc. Apparate in, kill the enemy government and generals, win the war. Toppling any regime in the world that hasn’t purchased magical protection of its own would give you a lot of money. In fact, every wizarding community should be able to demand arbitrary amounts of protection money from its local Muggles.
Theft and spying (industrial and government).
Subversion and interrogation of enemy leaders (by Legilimency, Veritaserum, Imperius.)
Creation of single-action devices via Transmutation (like some of the things Harry tried in his experiments). Muggles can then study, analyze, experiment on, or copy the Transmuted devices while they last.
Transportation. Launch satellites by Apparating into orbit! Rescue trapped people!
A wizard could easily play a Muggle Superman—flying, being invincible, combatting crime...
Creation of single-action devices via Transmutation (like some of the things Harry tried in his experiments). Muggles can then study, analyze, experiment on, or copy the Transmuted devices while they last.
Well, it’s not clear why it failed exactly. It might have been because it never existed before, but it seems more likely to me that it was because Harry didn’t know what it was exactly. He didn’t try to transmute “this molecular structure I have in my mind”, he tried to transmute “a substance I know nothing about except that it cures Alzheimer’s”. That was probably not specific enough for the spell. (Otherwise, why not transmute a black-box device with a big red “kill Voldemort where-ever he is” button, or a mysterious “bring a dead body back to life” device?)
In any case there are things who physical properties we know, and which exist or have existed, but would be very valuable to create in laboratories. Like creating a string of DNA to order, which can then replicate itself into ordinary non-transmuted matter—very valuable in 1993!
Nothing of worth? The canon explanation for the Wizarding world’s masquerade, from just a few chapters into the series, is that wizards would be in such demand by muggles that it would be too irritating and waste too much time.
Magical goods maybe, magical services certainly not. There are many things that magic could do to add value to non-magical objects, which then do not require any further magic to sustain (see Harry and Hermione’s discussion about helping to manufacture nanotechnology and/or Alzheimer’s cures).
There’s a long history of witch hunts inquisitions etc. a taboo on wizard muggle interactions makes sense and is consistent with history. It’s also has the merit of requiring fewer other pieces to be set up for it to work as an explanation.
Trade is a bigger problem than theft.
It’s (relatively) easy to handwave into being prohibitions on theft—pretty much every society dislikes it and you can posit both morality and anti-theft magics as making outright thieving to be not too useful for wizards.
On the other hand trade is generally seen as good and there are huge and obvious benefits to trade between Muggles and wizards. Especially given how easy it would be for less scrupulous wizards to make sure the terms of trade are very very beneficial to them (and yet do not descend into outright theft).
I’m not sure the problem is solvable without introducing major new mechanisms of how the world works.
Many, many post-agricultural societies have restrained trade, often to particular privileged individuals. I believe this is what a ‘patent’ used to be.
Yes, but notice what this implies. This implies that trade is such an awesome value-producing mechanism that we (=elites with political power) want to keep it for ourselves and our friends.
The idea is not to forbid trade, the idea is to restrict access and thus collect what the econospeak calls rents. Everyone wants to be a gatekeeper at a fountain of gold.
This usually requires that the person holding the patent provide enough trade to satisfy demand. Otherwise the pressure to create a black market is irresistible. So trade could be restricted to a few powerful wizards—perhaps to each wizarding government—but it could not be eliminated entirely.
And since wizards can provide extremely valuable services to Muggles in trade, they would capture almost all the Muggle gold in return. Then we would observe wizarding billionaires, making fortunes of a 100,000 Galleons negligible in comparison. That we don’t observe this is strong evidence that trade either doesn’t exist at all or is universal and unrestricted. Since the story offers ample proof that trade isn’t universal, it must be nonexistent. But it’s not clear what is preventing trade.
Wizarding culture. Trade with muggles was basically worthless until a single wizard’s lifetime ago, so the prejudice hasn’t had time to evolve away yet.
I recall reading that somewhere (maybe Pottermore?), Rowling said that the Malfoys gained their great family wealth by trade with muggles, until the establishment of the statute of secrecy, at which point they were quick to join the “Yep, we knew those dirty muggles just wanted to exploit and burn us all along!” crowd. I don’t remember if there is any similar detail about other wealthy families in canon or MoR; there’s Flamel with the Philosopher’s Stone, and the Potters with a combination family inheritance/bounty on Voldemort, but the Malfoys appear to be decidedly the richest family in Magical Britain, and I’d imagine that even with a 400 year gap, being those to most thoroughly exploit trade with muggles would be more than sufficient to explain their success.
Muggles had a lot of gold a hundred years ago, too. Certainly if you count in terms of just a few wizards taking possession of it. And it was easier to find because currencies were gold-backed.
If they were unwilling to just steal it (for whatever reason), then spending a few weeks performing services for the richest people in the world in exchange for half their wealth (amounting to many millions of Galleons) would have been a great bargain for wizards.
The mutual benefits of trade are non-obvious to humans, and many cultures have seen merchants as low-status because of a naive notion that they don’t contribute anything.
In most societies, there was no remotely adequate solution to the problems of tracking reputations and punishing violations of trust for merchants who operated outside the narrow circle of their own communities. So merchants were largely viewed as scammers because they mostly were; nothing naive about it.
Second thought: of course dishonest merchants exist, but it’s also true that merchants upset static status arrangements like controlling land being the only important thing.
Evidence that merchants were mostly scammers?
I would think that most merchants were working territories and dealing with the same people repeatedly, but I’m guessing, too.
I don’t think this is historically true. Humans actively traded since paleolithic times (there are archeological finds like amber far away inland or stone tools made out of stone that does not occur anywhere locally).
Merchants were typically seen as of lower status than the nobles and the military (for rather obvious reasons), but of higher status than craftsmen and peasants.
I don’t think that was intrinsic to being a merchant, just a consequence of (some of them) being richer.
I think even simpler than this is the fact that the wizards don’t have anything of worth to trade to the Muggles, since non-magical people have a hard time even seeing magical artifacts, much less using them.
Muggles have plenty of things that would be useful to Wizards, but the reverse isn’t true.
Wizards have plenty to trade to Muggles—by providing services, not products.
Magical cures to deadly diseases and accidents. A replicable cure can’t be traded, but wizards can individually cure powerful and wealthy people. (Harry speculates that wizards would probably cure cancer in members of the Muggle government.)
Military and covert operations, assassinations, coups, revolutions, etc. Apparate in, kill the enemy government and generals, win the war. Toppling any regime in the world that hasn’t purchased magical protection of its own would give you a lot of money. In fact, every wizarding community should be able to demand arbitrary amounts of protection money from its local Muggles.
Theft and spying (industrial and government).
Subversion and interrogation of enemy leaders (by Legilimency, Veritaserum, Imperius.)
Creation of single-action devices via Transmutation (like some of the things Harry tried in his experiments). Muggles can then study, analyze, experiment on, or copy the Transmuted devices while they last.
Transportation. Launch satellites by Apparating into orbit! Rescue trapped people!
A wizard could easily play a Muggle Superman—flying, being invincible, combatting crime...
Great list. Upvoted.
I think that actually failed …
Well, it’s not clear why it failed exactly. It might have been because it never existed before, but it seems more likely to me that it was because Harry didn’t know what it was exactly. He didn’t try to transmute “this molecular structure I have in my mind”, he tried to transmute “a substance I know nothing about except that it cures Alzheimer’s”. That was probably not specific enough for the spell. (Otherwise, why not transmute a black-box device with a big red “kill Voldemort where-ever he is” button, or a mysterious “bring a dead body back to life” device?)
In any case there are things who physical properties we know, and which exist or have existed, but would be very valuable to create in laboratories. Like creating a string of DNA to order, which can then replicate itself into ordinary non-transmuted matter—very valuable in 1993!
Yeah, Harry discovered that you can’t transmute something that hasn’t already been created through more conventional means.
Nothing of worth? The canon explanation for the Wizarding world’s masquerade, from just a few chapters into the series, is that wizards would be in such demand by muggles that it would be too irritating and waste too much time.
Magical goods maybe, magical services certainly not. There are many things that magic could do to add value to non-magical objects, which then do not require any further magic to sustain (see Harry and Hermione’s discussion about helping to manufacture nanotechnology and/or Alzheimer’s cures).
That’s true. Everyone’s talking so much about stealing gold and magical artifacts that I didn’t think of magical services.
There’s a long history of witch hunts inquisitions etc. a taboo on wizard muggle interactions makes sense and is consistent with history. It’s also has the merit of requiring fewer other pieces to be set up for it to work as an explanation.
Yet, this doesn’t stop them from intermarrying on a regular basis.
Well, but that’s true love. You can’t stop that!
Wait, are we applying narrative logic here or real logic?
that...said...it didn’t do them much good whenver they caught a real witch/wizard, they’d just freeze the flames and scream to keep up with the act
One witch deliberately got herself caught repeatedly (14 times?) because she liked the tingling.
Yeah. it’s cannon.