While I agree with most of this (and have upvoted) two points stand out:
Also, are you familiar with growth versus static models of intelligence
I don’t think bringing this up helps your point very much. While there are individuals whose apparent extreme talent blooms fairly late (e.g. Steven Chu who didn’t really start being that impressive until he was in college), the lack of change of IQ scores over time on average is very robust, dating back to Spearman’s original research about a hundred years ago. This is also true for other metrics of intelligence. By and large, intelligence is pretty static.
University professors don’t tell students they are too stupid to contribute to the problems they are trying to solve
This is true, but professors do sometimes tell students when a problem may just be out of their league. To use an extreme example, consider a grad student who walks into his adviser’s office and says he wants to prove the Riemann Hypothesis. That said, your essential point is valid, because even in that case, a professor could still direct them to some easier related problem or helpful question related to some aspect of it. So your basic point is valid.
Intelligence seems relatively static, but AFAIK once you’ve reached a certain minimum threshold in intelligence, conscientiousness becomes a more important factor for actual accomplishment. (Anecdotally and intuitively, conscientiousness seems more amenable to change, but I don’t know if the psychological evidence supports that.)
Wait, there’s real evidence of durable changes in conscientiousness? Point me its way. The psychology literature does not appear (after a brief search) to support the idea of lasting change. I would be happy to be wrong.
I’m not sure how strongly IQ correlates with real-world abilities (well, actually, I am sure: 0.2-0.6 depending on the task 1). You don’t need exceptional IQ to do new math (see Richard Feynman) but you do need an interest in math and quite a bit of exposure. Synesthesia can also be helpful.
I’m not finding a non-paywalled version right now, and unfortunately am not at my university at the moment to access it.
How many mathematicians consciously try to extract heuristics from their problem-solving process and keep them in a database, or track how environmental factors like diet and activities affect their productivity?
Has there ever been a team of mathematicians teamed with the team of mathematician optimizers who observed the mathematicians like lab animals? :D
Has there ever been a team of mathematicians teamed with the team of mathematician optimizers who observed the mathematicians like lab animals?
Soviet Russia produced a remarkable amount of math, and ideologically was well-suited to such testing or design; they ultimately created whole academic cities for science and math, optimized (or at least, not pessimized like the rest of Soviet Russia) for research.
In fact, what I know of the Russian math academic system strikes me as reminiscent of the impression I have of the very successful athletic systems in both Russia and America: take young kids showing promise with relatives in related areas, push them hard with experienced tutors themselves skilled in the area, provide the resources they might need, various incentives for them and the relatives, and don’t let off the slack until they begin to flag in their late 20s/early 30s at which point they take their tutors’ places.
Some special schools target a limited number of academic domains, and some focus on more general academic-talent development. The most intensive special schools existed in the Soviet bloc countries. According to Donoghue, Karp, and Vogeli (2000), Chubarikov and Pyryt (1993), and Grigorenko and Clinkenbeard (1994), the impetus for specialized science schools came in the late 1950s from distinguished scientists advocating for educational opportunities to develop future generations of scientists. In order to increase the geographical reach of the schools, several included boarding facilities. Admission to the schools was based on stringent criteria, including having already competed well in regional competitions. The faculty of these schools included pedagogically talented educators (Karp, 2010), and students had the opportunity to work with renowned professors as well. An example of one of these specialized institutions is the residential Kolmogorov School (Chubarikove & Pyryt, 1993), which enrolls 200 students per year from Russia, Belarus, and beyond. Selection was and continues to be based on a record of success in regional Olympiads. Professors from the prestigious Moscow State University serve as the faculty, the coursework is heavy and intense, and students are expected to conduct independent projects on topics of interest to them. Grigorenko and Clinkenbeard (1994) reported that students attending Soviet special schools were uncharacteristically (for the Soviet Union) encouraged to be intellectually aggressive and competitive. They added that the curriculum in these schools shortchanged the humanities and social sciences, focusing overwhelmingly on excellence in mathematics and science. Although the schools were often denigrated by Soviet educators and psychologists, who argued that outstanding achievement was achieved exclusively from hard work and commitment, these arguments were countered by famous scientific advocates (Donoghue et al., 2000). The schools, which continue to exist in some form today, have graduates on the faculties of the most prestigious institutions in Russia. However, many graduates of these schools are also found in the academic ranks of Western universities, leading Russian policy makers to question the value of further investment.
Donoghue, E. F., Karp, A., & Vogeli, B. R. (2000). Russian schools for the mathematically and scientifically talented: Can the vision survive unchanged? Roeper Review, 22, 121–123. doi:10.1080/02783190009554015
Chubarikove, V. N., & Pyryt, M. (1993). Educating mathematically gifted pupils at the Komogorov School. Gifted Education International, 9, 110–130
Grigorenko, E. L., & Clinkenbeard, P. R. (1994). An inside view of gifted education in Russia. Roeper Review, 16, 167–171. doi:10.1080/02783199409553566
Karp, A. (2010). Teachers of the mathematically gifted tell about themselves and their profession. Roeper Review, 32, 272–280. doi:10.1080/02783193.2010.485306
I studied in specialized soviet school (well, post soviet, but same teachers). It had tough entrance exam. I say in past tense because it was dismantled. The biggest thing about those is that we study deeper and with better understanding instead of skipping ahead to make prodigies that understand same topics equally badly but at earlier age, and never really become very competent at anything.
Also, on the humanities, while there may be less % of humanities, the students are smarter and go ahead faster and still retain/understand more than average at typical humanities course.
While I agree with most of this (and have upvoted) two points stand out:
I don’t think bringing this up helps your point very much. While there are individuals whose apparent extreme talent blooms fairly late (e.g. Steven Chu who didn’t really start being that impressive until he was in college), the lack of change of IQ scores over time on average is very robust, dating back to Spearman’s original research about a hundred years ago. This is also true for other metrics of intelligence. By and large, intelligence is pretty static.
This is true, but professors do sometimes tell students when a problem may just be out of their league. To use an extreme example, consider a grad student who walks into his adviser’s office and says he wants to prove the Riemann Hypothesis. That said, your essential point is valid, because even in that case, a professor could still direct them to some easier related problem or helpful question related to some aspect of it. So your basic point is valid.
Intelligence seems relatively static, but AFAIK once you’ve reached a certain minimum threshold in intelligence, conscientiousness becomes a more important factor for actual accomplishment. (Anecdotally and intuitively, conscientiousness seems more amenable to change, but I don’t know if the psychological evidence supports that.)
Wait, there’s real evidence of durable changes in conscientiousness? Point me its way. The psychology literature does not appear (after a brief search) to support the idea of lasting change. I would be happy to be wrong.
Well, there’s http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Eisenberger-Learned-industriousness.pdf
Sorry, I should have been more clear: I only have anecdotal evidence, and a rather small sample at that. I’ll edit my comment.
Mind sharing your source for relatively static IQ? I feel like I’ve read otherwise, especially for children.
Childhood IQs don’t correlate that tightly with adult IQs. But once people are in their late teens change already becomes very unlikely.
Yes, in the lower end there’s some flexbility, especially in the mid teens but after that change is relatively static.
I’m not sure how strongly IQ correlates with real-world abilities (well, actually, I am sure: 0.2-0.6 depending on the task 1). You don’t need exceptional IQ to do new math (see Richard Feynman) but you do need an interest in math and quite a bit of exposure. Synesthesia can also be helpful.
I’m not finding a non-paywalled version right now, and unfortunately am not at my university at the moment to access it.
How many mathematicians consciously try to extract heuristics from their problem-solving process and keep them in a database, or track how environmental factors like diet and activities affect their productivity?
Has there ever been a team of mathematicians teamed with the team of mathematician optimizers who observed the mathematicians like lab animals? :D
Soviet Russia produced a remarkable amount of math, and ideologically was well-suited to such testing or design; they ultimately created whole academic cities for science and math, optimized (or at least, not pessimized like the rest of Soviet Russia) for research.
In fact, what I know of the Russian math academic system strikes me as reminiscent of the impression I have of the very successful athletic systems in both Russia and America: take young kids showing promise with relatives in related areas, push them hard with experienced tutors themselves skilled in the area, provide the resources they might need, various incentives for them and the relatives, and don’t let off the slack until they begin to flag in their late 20s/early 30s at which point they take their tutors’ places.
Read this today, “Rethinking Giftedness and Gifted Education: A Proposed Direction Forward Based on Psychological Science”, which is very germane to this discussion.
It also discusses athletics.
I studied in specialized soviet school (well, post soviet, but same teachers). It had tough entrance exam. I say in past tense because it was dismantled. The biggest thing about those is that we study deeper and with better understanding instead of skipping ahead to make prodigies that understand same topics equally badly but at earlier age, and never really become very competent at anything.
Also, on the humanities, while there may be less % of humanities, the students are smarter and go ahead faster and still retain/understand more than average at typical humanities course.
Did you just go meta on the process of going less meta?