“Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”—Zen koan
What does that mean you cryptic bastards! If enlightenment is so great then give me some step by step directions to it!
Here’s another, slightly more informative quote:
The famous saying of Ch’ing-yüan Wei-hsin [Seigen Ishin]
Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.
These classic quotes cut right to the essence of Zen, but provide no context or path for getting there.
I see a few key reasons for the persistent “woo-woo” vagueness. (1) Many persons are attracted to what they see as a doorway to mystical, occult, supernatural, etc. knowledge and powers. Good, I suppose, to the extent it keeps them on their journey of discovery… (2) People come from different backgrounds and harbor different preconceptions of “the Truth” and (in my experience) it usually takes a vast and indeterminate amount of effort to convey and address all these aspects of what Zen is not, leaving the very simple but powerful essence of what Zen is. So the standard approach is to offer small kernels intended to avoid the myriad possible objections while still engaging the mind of the seeker in resolving the apparent paradox by discovering the appropriate context.
The denizens of LessWrong can sometimes be found in the first category, under the influence of almost magical belief in the power of “Rationality” as they imagine it, and quite often in the second, where their intelligence gives them a view of things somewhat above that of the crowd, but where they tend to stay and admire the superior view rather than strive to take it up (and out) another level of context and meaning making.
[I realize that the above could be taken as demeaning, but could easily provide the basis for a 3rd justification for pedagogical vagueness—not to create a barrier by offending the other’s pride. A 4th justification, and probably the strongest, would be that understanding that is constructed, rather than conveyed, tends to have greater impact. But time is short...]
Zen enlightenment is simply about re-conceiving the relationship between the observer and the observed.
Once this re-conception is attained, everything is just as it was before but ontologically simpler—there is no separate, privileged “self” in the model of reality. To grok this is liberating and may cause one to laugh with joy at the silliness of having carried that imagined burden for no gain; indeed it only got in one’s way. Then, back to cutting wood and carrying water, the same as before but feeling lighter.
It seems that I got koans before and then for many of them. I just keep getting them and getting them again, despite knowing and getting them already.
Fwiw I haven’t seen the self/non in many koans yet, but I have a strange relationship with the self “problem” where it’s hard to grasp to see it as anything. I’m caught in the middle of unclear of self.
What does that mean you cryptic bastards! If enlightenment is so great then give me some step by step directions to it!
Here’s another, slightly more informative quote:
The famous saying of Ch’ing-yüan Wei-hsin [Seigen Ishin]
Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it’s just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.
These classic quotes cut right to the essence of Zen, but provide no context or path for getting there.
I see a few key reasons for the persistent “woo-woo” vagueness. (1) Many persons are attracted to what they see as a doorway to mystical, occult, supernatural, etc. knowledge and powers. Good, I suppose, to the extent it keeps them on their journey of discovery… (2) People come from different backgrounds and harbor different preconceptions of “the Truth” and (in my experience) it usually takes a vast and indeterminate amount of effort to convey and address all these aspects of what Zen is not, leaving the very simple but powerful essence of what Zen is. So the standard approach is to offer small kernels intended to avoid the myriad possible objections while still engaging the mind of the seeker in resolving the apparent paradox by discovering the appropriate context.
The denizens of LessWrong can sometimes be found in the first category, under the influence of almost magical belief in the power of “Rationality” as they imagine it, and quite often in the second, where their intelligence gives them a view of things somewhat above that of the crowd, but where they tend to stay and admire the superior view rather than strive to take it up (and out) another level of context and meaning making.
[I realize that the above could be taken as demeaning, but could easily provide the basis for a 3rd justification for pedagogical vagueness—not to create a barrier by offending the other’s pride. A 4th justification, and probably the strongest, would be that understanding that is constructed, rather than conveyed, tends to have greater impact. But time is short...]
Zen enlightenment is simply about re-conceiving the relationship between the observer and the observed.
Once this re-conception is attained, everything is just as it was before but ontologically simpler—there is no separate, privileged “self” in the model of reality. To grok this is liberating and may cause one to laugh with joy at the silliness of having carried that imagined burden for no gain; indeed it only got in one’s way. Then, back to cutting wood and carrying water, the same as before but feeling lighter.
I hope that this might help.
-Jef
Yes. Everything helps.
My relationship with Zen koans has been ongoing… http://bearlamp.com.au/zen-koans/
It seems that I got koans before and then for many of them. I just keep getting them and getting them again, despite knowing and getting them already.
Fwiw I haven’t seen the self/non in many koans yet, but I have a strange relationship with the self “problem” where it’s hard to grasp to see it as anything. I’m caught in the middle of unclear of self.