Outside of this snobbery, though, just in terms of friendly social drinking, almost everyone agrees that they drink because they enjoy the feeling, and the taste is just something they grew to like over time, or they mix it with something sweet to make it taste better.
Um, no, and that’s the problem. I have never been able to get people to admit that it’s just about the mental effects, and that they have to find ways to make themselves tolerate the awful taste. Not without a lot of teeth-pulling, and people telling me about all the wonderful arguments against this position.
Again, it’s the insistence that they like “this particular drink” because it’s “so good” that bothers me. No, it’s about getting high, and no one will talk about this.
I’m surprised by this experimental result. In my experience most people say that it’s about the mental effects as well as the taste. Just to be clear: over half the people you ask say that they don’t drink alcohol for the mental effects at all, and it’s solely about the taste?
I wonder if part of this is due to the way you’re asking. You use language like “tolerate the awful taste”, “suffer through”, and compare it to hot sauce and engine oil. Obviously you strongly dislike the taste of alcohol. Not everyone does though; while I drink primarily for the mental effects, I also enjoy and have acquired a taste for some different types of alcohol, and I like some combinations of flavors when having a beer with food.
So maybe you’re getting strong reactions in contrast to your extreme statements that alcohol tastes awful and no one could ever like the taste.
me: So you like the taste of those margaritas? What is it about the taste?
And they answered your question? Specifically, would one good response cause you to rethink your theory on the subject? How many responses would you need to be convinced?
I am not saying I have those responses. I am just curious.
It sounds like the person here is saying he drinks for the mental effects (“it helps me to relax”), and that he doesn’t mind the taste because it’s mixed with things he likes (“fruit flavors”). This seems like the answer I’d expect.
Whereas it seems like you absolutely despise the taste, most people who drink don’t mind it, and sometimes like it, especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes.
But they don’t like it, “especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes (and taste-bud numbing ice, but whatever)”. Rather, they like sweet, fruity, cold drinks, and still find them good, even if it is worsened with a little alcohol.
That, I think is the appropriate way to characterize it.. Again, remember my incessant point about baseline comparisons: if someone likes fruity sweetness, it’s going to make pretty much anything (that doesn’t clash) taste good. But so what? That doesn’t mean they like the stuff its mixed with. It just means they like that fruity sweetness, and their enjoyment may persist even if the drink is degraded with other, worse flavors.
What’s more, conversations like these (alarmingly typical) reveal that people aren’t even thinking about the distinction between liking a drink for its taste, and liking it because they like getting high—and nor are they interested in learning.
I’ve been watching this thread for a while, and as a frequent alcohol-drinker, I thought I would try to report my experience as honestly as I can manage:
Beer: In an absolute sense, I don’t like the taste. Since some beers taste less bad—or more interesting—than others, I will sometimes comment that a particular beer tastes “really good”. What I mean though, is that it tastes “really good” for a beer. I drink quite a lot of beer, because I usually prefer the slower, gentler, more controllable buzz to that of harder alcohol. I’ve heard plenty of women say they don’t like beer. In some circles, it’s considered unmanly for a man to say he doesn’t like beer, and I expect that’s why I hear it much less from men. In some situations, I take the praise of beer as shorthand for “I know we all don’t have much in common, nor any real reason beyond company for hanging out, so lets go through the motions of affirming our mutual love for something that is safe to affirm mutual love for.”
Wine: This is definitely all about the taste, but it’s not at all the same category of taste as sugar or a milkshake. This is all about the complexity of dozens of interacting flavors. It is a kaleidescope that you “see” with your tongue. It’s a taste experience by definition, but that doesn’t mean that it is anything like the tastiness of a milkshake. The thrill is in the richness of the patterns that exist in the taste. Importantly, I find that only certain wines at certain ages produce this effect to a worthwhile degree. Lousy wine tastes lousy. A really good cabernet franc, say, can be the kind of amazing that makes me bolt upright in my chair and go wide-eyed. Really. As far as the alcohol component, it is such an intrinsic part of the taste-orchestra that I, unfortunately, find it impossible to speculate on whether I’d still drink wine without it. I think I would still drink it if it did not produce a buzz, although there would be one less reason. I think I would still like swishing it around, even if I was only going to spit it out. Needless to say, I find it to be an extremely pleasant way to get buzzed.
Mixed drinks/Hard alcohol: As far as I’m concerned, these have always existed solely as a fast-track to getting buzzed or drunk. For me, they might as well be an IV drip. I, however, administer them in the normal way, because it is normal and practical. Also, sipping lets me roughly calibrate my dosage to match others, and the situation.
Bat urine: I don’t think this is a fair argument at all, because you cannot separate your disgust reaction from pure taste, in the experience of drinking something. Several bodily fluids have little/fairly neutral taste, but the experience of drinking it would still be disgusting.
I agree that most alcohol consumption is mainly about the buzz. I like different states of consciousness. The one induced by alcohol is not my favorite, but it’s one I can enjoy without having to sneak around or worry about prison, so I make do with the (somewhat personally disappointing) political freedoms I have. I do drink wine for the taste—it just isn’t the same kind of taste as anything else. It’s a sensory-overload experience that happens to be delivered by the tongue.
Isn’t it possible that a little bit of complex, astringent bitterness can actually make a sweet fruity drink more palatable? I wouldn’t drink a virgin margherita; I honestly believe the tequilla and triple sec make it taste better.
It seems like this whole argument is motivated out of a wish to make it socially acceptable to say “I don’t like the taste of beer” by trying to paint everyone who disagrees as liars.
You need to read my history again, for the first time. I initially did believe that I was just weird in not liking alcohol, or that it would come with time. It’s the obvious, favored, simple hypothesis.
But I can only hold belief in it for so long until the shower of disconfirmatory evidence hits. When I look behind the veil and find out what it means for other people to like alcohol, and find that it matches up with what I consider not liking alcohol, well … if anything, I held on to the belief too long.
Did you notice that I said that I don’t match up with your criterion? Besides the fact that even that total list didn’t seem to show that a person necessarily didn’t like the taste of something.
You could at least modify your belief to “some people don’t like the taste of alcohol but claim that they do for such and such reasons...” and then it would become more accurate, since surely this is likely true of at least some people, while it is surely not true of all who claim to like it.
For example, an area where your position has some truth is that there are guys who basically dislike any type of alcohol except sweet drinks, and these they like only because of the sweetness, but they are unwilling to admit it because this is thought to be “girlish”. But at the same time, this is definitely untrue of many others.
I ask that you take serious note of the sympathy with which I’ve characterized these liars. I completely understand why they have to put on a show: anything that does to your mind what alcoholic drinks do, but doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people, is going to get banned or otherwise given severe restrictions. Such a pretense doesn’t strike me as so wrong here.
What bothers me is the widespread refusal to acknowledge this, even in private.
Many people don’t drink alcohol primarily for the mental effects. Rather, there is a strong status penalty to drinking non-alcoholic beverages. Most non-alcoholic beverages are strongly associated with children, at least in the afternoon (juice and milk are OK at breakfast, not at dinner). Adults can’t order them without sending an undesirable signal about their maturity.
Among the acceptable drinks, you’re left with other “acquired tastes” (coffee and tea) or drinks that often give other low status signals (water alone is cheap, soft drinks are lower-class).
Once you’ve established that it’s a status issue, the refusal to admit it is understandable, since open concern for status is generally a low-status trait. I don’t agree with all of Robin Hanson’s status explanations, but it makes sense here.
The mind-altering effects play into it as well. Even then, there are important signaling effects in play (Robin put up a post on that a bit ago). And ignoring taste totally is a mistake. Even if I might prefer a milkshake to an Irish creme, I definitely prefer an Irish creme to Everclear.
Btw, I think your milkshake comparison needs to be between equal caloric portions.
I’d prefer 600 calories of milkshake to 600 calories of beer. But I would rather have one beer than one milkshake. For certain values of beer, beer is more delicious than milkshake per calorie.
anything that does to your mind what alcoholic drinks do, but doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people
I’m confused. Are you saying that alcohol doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people? What society are we talking about?
I would guess that of the adult population in the US who drinks, at least 75% drink primarily for the mental effects and would have no problem saying so.
anything that does to your mind what alcoholic drinks do, but doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people, is going to get banned or otherwise given severe restrictions.
Understand now? If alcohol didn’t have the social support it does, it would be Just Another Mind Altering Substance that would be banned, or that you’d need a prescription for.
Please, finish sentences before responding to them
a) you’re not really curious,
b) expect any answer to come back negative, and
c) aren’t interested in arguing whether he can read a full clause anyway.
If alcohol didn’t have the social support it does, it would be Just Another Mind Altering Substance that would be banned, or that you’d need a prescription for.
I find this difficult to swallow. Alcohol prohibition was a widely acknowledged disaster (or does this collective memory also count as “social support”?). The “Joe Sixpacks” of the nation aren’t crooning over Miller’s exquisite blend of hops, but they’d be up in arms if you tried to take it away.
And drug policy (at least in the US) isn’t particularly consistent—if you don’t believe me, feel free to conduct your own experiment with some high-potency salvia extract.
I doubt most people are worried even subconsciously about the reintroduction of prohibition. Why postulate a coordinated social response to such a non-threat?
I find this difficult to swallow. Alcohol prohibition was a widely acknowledged disaster (or does this collective memory also count as “social support”?).
Yes it was a disaster—because of alcohol’s widespread social support, that led to the black market, inability to enforce, etc.
Hence my statement
If alcohol didn’t have the social support it does, it would … be banned, or … need a prescription.
You also said:
I doubt most people are worried even subconsciously about the reintroduction of prohibition. Why postulate a coordinated social response to such a non-threat?
There are many measures short of prohibition that restrict alcohol. In trying to impose them, as society imposes restrictions on mind-altering substances, legislatures butt up against the social support for alcohol. Retaining this support is necessary for preventing these (otherwise reasonable) restrictions on alcohol.
This is getting perilously close to politics, but the difference with alcohol is the great history of human use. Alcohol was one of the first drugs regularly consumed by humans. A lot of culture has developed around that. Prohibition failed because it tried to outlaw the culture. Cannabis and psychedelics were also used by pre-modern humans, but the government could outlaw the other drugs without a people’s revolt because the average person didn’t use cannabis and psychedelics. The average person did and does use alcohol.
Um, no, and that’s the problem. I have never been able to get people to admit that it’s just about the mental effects, and that they have to find ways to make themselves tolerate the awful taste. Not without a lot of teeth-pulling, and people telling me about all the wonderful arguments against this position.
Again, it’s the insistence that they like “this particular drink” because it’s “so good” that bothers me. No, it’s about getting high, and no one will talk about this.
I’m surprised by this experimental result. In my experience most people say that it’s about the mental effects as well as the taste. Just to be clear: over half the people you ask say that they don’t drink alcohol for the mental effects at all, and it’s solely about the taste?
I wonder if part of this is due to the way you’re asking. You use language like “tolerate the awful taste”, “suffer through”, and compare it to hot sauce and engine oil. Obviously you strongly dislike the taste of alcohol. Not everyone does though; while I drink primarily for the mental effects, I also enjoy and have acquired a taste for some different types of alcohol, and I like some combinations of flavors when having a beer with food.
So maybe you’re getting strong reactions in contrast to your extreme statements that alcohol tastes awful and no one could ever like the taste.
It’s more like this:
me: I think I’m strange. I don’t like alcoholic drinks. I mean, I like the effect on me, but not the taste, not the process of drinking it.
them: Yeah, that is strange. I mean, I like margaritas.
me: Oh really? What do you like about them?
them: Well, I like them when I go out dancing...
me: No, I mean, like, about the taste.
them: Well, I like those really frozen ones with lots of different fruit flavors.
me: So you like the taste of those margaritas? What is it about the taste?
them: Um, well, it helps me to relax. [Alternate: It’s kind of a social thing/social lubricant.]
me: *falls out of chair* Okay, so about the taste. Do you like the taste more than that of a milkshake?
them: Hm, that’s a good question, I’ve never even thought of that. No, I like the milkshake much better.
me: *loses hope in humanity*
What would happen if you asked someone this:
And they answered your question? Specifically, would one good response cause you to rethink your theory on the subject? How many responses would you need to be convinced?
I am not saying I have those responses. I am just curious.
It sounds like the person here is saying he drinks for the mental effects (“it helps me to relax”), and that he doesn’t mind the taste because it’s mixed with things he likes (“fruit flavors”). This seems like the answer I’d expect.
Whereas it seems like you absolutely despise the taste, most people who drink don’t mind it, and sometimes like it, especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes.
But they don’t like it, “especially when mixed with fruit or sweet tastes (and taste-bud numbing ice, but whatever)”. Rather, they like sweet, fruity, cold drinks, and still find them good, even if it is worsened with a little alcohol.
That, I think is the appropriate way to characterize it.. Again, remember my incessant point about baseline comparisons: if someone likes fruity sweetness, it’s going to make pretty much anything (that doesn’t clash) taste good. But so what? That doesn’t mean they like the stuff its mixed with. It just means they like that fruity sweetness, and their enjoyment may persist even if the drink is degraded with other, worse flavors.
What’s more, conversations like these (alarmingly typical) reveal that people aren’t even thinking about the distinction between liking a drink for its taste, and liking it because they like getting high—and nor are they interested in learning.
I’ve been watching this thread for a while, and as a frequent alcohol-drinker, I thought I would try to report my experience as honestly as I can manage:
Beer: In an absolute sense, I don’t like the taste. Since some beers taste less bad—or more interesting—than others, I will sometimes comment that a particular beer tastes “really good”. What I mean though, is that it tastes “really good” for a beer. I drink quite a lot of beer, because I usually prefer the slower, gentler, more controllable buzz to that of harder alcohol. I’ve heard plenty of women say they don’t like beer. In some circles, it’s considered unmanly for a man to say he doesn’t like beer, and I expect that’s why I hear it much less from men. In some situations, I take the praise of beer as shorthand for “I know we all don’t have much in common, nor any real reason beyond company for hanging out, so lets go through the motions of affirming our mutual love for something that is safe to affirm mutual love for.”
Wine: This is definitely all about the taste, but it’s not at all the same category of taste as sugar or a milkshake. This is all about the complexity of dozens of interacting flavors. It is a kaleidescope that you “see” with your tongue. It’s a taste experience by definition, but that doesn’t mean that it is anything like the tastiness of a milkshake. The thrill is in the richness of the patterns that exist in the taste. Importantly, I find that only certain wines at certain ages produce this effect to a worthwhile degree. Lousy wine tastes lousy. A really good cabernet franc, say, can be the kind of amazing that makes me bolt upright in my chair and go wide-eyed. Really. As far as the alcohol component, it is such an intrinsic part of the taste-orchestra that I, unfortunately, find it impossible to speculate on whether I’d still drink wine without it. I think I would still drink it if it did not produce a buzz, although there would be one less reason. I think I would still like swishing it around, even if I was only going to spit it out. Needless to say, I find it to be an extremely pleasant way to get buzzed.
Mixed drinks/Hard alcohol: As far as I’m concerned, these have always existed solely as a fast-track to getting buzzed or drunk. For me, they might as well be an IV drip. I, however, administer them in the normal way, because it is normal and practical. Also, sipping lets me roughly calibrate my dosage to match others, and the situation.
Bat urine: I don’t think this is a fair argument at all, because you cannot separate your disgust reaction from pure taste, in the experience of drinking something. Several bodily fluids have little/fairly neutral taste, but the experience of drinking it would still be disgusting.
I agree that most alcohol consumption is mainly about the buzz. I like different states of consciousness. The one induced by alcohol is not my favorite, but it’s one I can enjoy without having to sneak around or worry about prison, so I make do with the (somewhat personally disappointing) political freedoms I have. I do drink wine for the taste—it just isn’t the same kind of taste as anything else. It’s a sensory-overload experience that happens to be delivered by the tongue.
Isn’t it possible that a little bit of complex, astringent bitterness can actually make a sweet fruity drink more palatable? I wouldn’t drink a virgin margherita; I honestly believe the tequilla and triple sec make it taste better.
Hey, if that helps keep it legal and socially acceptable to get high … sure, why not?
It seems like this whole argument is motivated out of a wish to make it socially acceptable to say “I don’t like the taste of beer” by trying to paint everyone who disagrees as liars.
No, I think he simply hates the taste of alcohol so much that he can’t conceive that someone could honestly like it.
You need to read my history again, for the first time. I initially did believe that I was just weird in not liking alcohol, or that it would come with time. It’s the obvious, favored, simple hypothesis.
But I can only hold belief in it for so long until the shower of disconfirmatory evidence hits. When I look behind the veil and find out what it means for other people to like alcohol, and find that it matches up with what I consider not liking alcohol, well … if anything, I held on to the belief too long.
Did you notice that I said that I don’t match up with your criterion? Besides the fact that even that total list didn’t seem to show that a person necessarily didn’t like the taste of something.
You could at least modify your belief to “some people don’t like the taste of alcohol but claim that they do for such and such reasons...” and then it would become more accurate, since surely this is likely true of at least some people, while it is surely not true of all who claim to like it.
For example, an area where your position has some truth is that there are guys who basically dislike any type of alcohol except sweet drinks, and these they like only because of the sweetness, but they are unwilling to admit it because this is thought to be “girlish”. But at the same time, this is definitely untrue of many others.
I ask that you take serious note of the sympathy with which I’ve characterized these liars. I completely understand why they have to put on a show: anything that does to your mind what alcoholic drinks do, but doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people, is going to get banned or otherwise given severe restrictions. Such a pretense doesn’t strike me as so wrong here.
What bothers me is the widespread refusal to acknowledge this, even in private.
I think you’re missing a significant factor.
Many people don’t drink alcohol primarily for the mental effects. Rather, there is a strong status penalty to drinking non-alcoholic beverages. Most non-alcoholic beverages are strongly associated with children, at least in the afternoon (juice and milk are OK at breakfast, not at dinner). Adults can’t order them without sending an undesirable signal about their maturity.
Among the acceptable drinks, you’re left with other “acquired tastes” (coffee and tea) or drinks that often give other low status signals (water alone is cheap, soft drinks are lower-class).
Once you’ve established that it’s a status issue, the refusal to admit it is understandable, since open concern for status is generally a low-status trait. I don’t agree with all of Robin Hanson’s status explanations, but it makes sense here.
The mind-altering effects play into it as well. Even then, there are important signaling effects in play (Robin put up a post on that a bit ago). And ignoring taste totally is a mistake. Even if I might prefer a milkshake to an Irish creme, I definitely prefer an Irish creme to Everclear.
Btw, I think your milkshake comparison needs to be between equal caloric portions.
I’d prefer 600 calories of milkshake to 600 calories of beer. But I would rather have one beer than one milkshake. For certain values of beer, beer is more delicious than milkshake per calorie.
Why could per-calorie be the relevant metric? And why would a metric requiring you to consume the full five beers be helpful?
I’m confused. Are you saying that alcohol doesn’t have wide-scale social support from respectable people? What society are we talking about?
I would guess that of the adult population in the US who drinks, at least 75% drink primarily for the mental effects and would have no problem saying so.
Do you have trouble reading a full clause?
Understand now? If alcohol didn’t have the social support it does, it would be Just Another Mind Altering Substance that would be banned, or that you’d need a prescription for.
Please, finish sentences before responding to them
SilasBarta, I too am puzzled at why Blueberry misunderstood you, but your response was needlessly rude.
Would you say it was more or less rude than clipping a sentence in two and responding to one that misrepresented what I said?
Do any of you intend to criticize/mod down Blueberry for his/her rudeness, or do you just reserve your rebukes for the diligent?
I submit that
a) you’re not really curious, b) expect any answer to come back negative, and c) aren’t interested in arguing whether he can read a full clause anyway.
I find this difficult to swallow. Alcohol prohibition was a widely acknowledged disaster (or does this collective memory also count as “social support”?). The “Joe Sixpacks” of the nation aren’t crooning over Miller’s exquisite blend of hops, but they’d be up in arms if you tried to take it away.
And drug policy (at least in the US) isn’t particularly consistent—if you don’t believe me, feel free to conduct your own experiment with some high-potency salvia extract.
I doubt most people are worried even subconsciously about the reintroduction of prohibition. Why postulate a coordinated social response to such a non-threat?
Yes it was a disaster—because of alcohol’s widespread social support, that led to the black market, inability to enforce, etc.
Hence my statement
You also said:
There are many measures short of prohibition that restrict alcohol. In trying to impose them, as society imposes restrictions on mind-altering substances, legislatures butt up against the social support for alcohol. Retaining this support is necessary for preventing these (otherwise reasonable) restrictions on alcohol.
Salvia is both new and little known in comparison to marijuana, LSD, cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.
This is getting perilously close to politics, but the difference with alcohol is the great history of human use. Alcohol was one of the first drugs regularly consumed by humans. A lot of culture has developed around that. Prohibition failed because it tried to outlaw the culture. Cannabis and psychedelics were also used by pre-modern humans, but the government could outlaw the other drugs without a people’s revolt because the average person didn’t use cannabis and psychedelics. The average person did and does use alcohol.