Could you point me to where it is? I don’t see it.
Well, considering I am highly religious and find my religion to be highly rational as well as thinking that there are many more ways to find knowledge then just repeated applications of bayes theorem I have to question your assertion of my rationality as such things are considered on this site.
I didn’t say that you were highly rational. I said you seemed to be more rational than Kary Mullis. That’s the point. There are some very irrational Nobel winners. Rationality is not the same thing as intelligence, or creativity or many other important traits.
Unless there really are evil forces out there.
Well, say hypothetically you were in the position of Screwtape or some other classical demon and you need to draft a policy for what sort of fake mystical forces your demons should do. Which do you think would work better, answering every apparent attempt to get a mystical experience with something that the believer expects to be true, or answering every one of them with a revelation about a specific religion made up by the demons. The second seems a lot more effective. So why don’t they do this? Let me suggest that there’s a simple reason: the existence of such forces is the perfect post-hoc explanation, that’s why so many different religions even when they vehemently disagree can agree on some form of this.
Is Confucianism a religion? If it is then Transhumanism is as well, if it is not then Transhumanism in general is not currently a religion (although for some people it may be, but some people take the most random things for their religion so that doesn’t say much).
I’m generally not inclined to see Confucianism as a religion, although it has strong religious elements. That’s why for example there can be self-identifying Chinese Christians who also practice aspects of Confucianism. In a very similar way, there’s no reason why someone couldn’t be a member of a major religion and still subscribe to what you have listed as transhumanist ideas. The danger of Strong AI could be plausible even in a religious framework (indeed, possibly even more so if one thinks that an intelligent artificial entity would be lacking the moral compass that comes from having a “soul”). Similarly, I’ve had serious discussions with Orthodox Jews over way in an Orthodox framework cryonics should actually be halachically mandatory. Almost every single step you list that is a belief related to a specific technology I could probably find at least one religion which is theologically sympathetic to that belief. So if anything, this looks similar to Confucianism in exactly the ways that Confucianism doesn’t look like a classic religion.
Moreover, the aspects of Confucianism that most resemble a religion are precisely the parts that the transhumanist cluster lacks. Confucianism has veneration of ancestors and sacrifices, and a belief in some forms that worshiped ancestors can intervene in the world. These are classical beliefs that we associate with religions. Nothing you gave resembles anything like that. So this argument if anything undermines your claim, there’s an argument over whether Confucianism is a religion, and the most religious-like aspects of Confucianism are precisely the sorts of things which have no analog in the transhumanist cluster you’ve list.
So this argument if anything undermines your claim
You missed my point entirely. I conceded that I might be using too broad of a category with the title of religion and pointed to an example where there is debate over whether it counts as a religion or not to determine membership in the category. (incidentally part of the argument is over whether ancestor worship is part of Confucianism or is from traditional Chinese “heaven” worship). Since you do not consider Confucianism a religion then Transhumanism is not a religion, as I conceded.
. Which do you think would work better, answering every apparent attempt to get a mystical experience with something that the believer expects to be true, or answering every one of them with a revelation about a specific religion made up by the demons.
Actually I think mystical experiences with things the believer expects to be true works fine once the religion of the believer has already been modified away from strict truth. This creates groups that believe in very different things and have reinforcing experiences such that if the truth were attempted to be restored it would face social momentum against it rather then be a constant among confusion. As far as I can tell though both tactics have been used depending on what can be made to work.
Could you point me to where it is?
I consider this to have been covered in theOtherDave line of discussions.
Could you point me to where it is? I don’t see it.
I didn’t say that you were highly rational. I said you seemed to be more rational than Kary Mullis. That’s the point. There are some very irrational Nobel winners. Rationality is not the same thing as intelligence, or creativity or many other important traits.
Well, say hypothetically you were in the position of Screwtape or some other classical demon and you need to draft a policy for what sort of fake mystical forces your demons should do. Which do you think would work better, answering every apparent attempt to get a mystical experience with something that the believer expects to be true, or answering every one of them with a revelation about a specific religion made up by the demons. The second seems a lot more effective. So why don’t they do this? Let me suggest that there’s a simple reason: the existence of such forces is the perfect post-hoc explanation, that’s why so many different religions even when they vehemently disagree can agree on some form of this.
I’m generally not inclined to see Confucianism as a religion, although it has strong religious elements. That’s why for example there can be self-identifying Chinese Christians who also practice aspects of Confucianism. In a very similar way, there’s no reason why someone couldn’t be a member of a major religion and still subscribe to what you have listed as transhumanist ideas. The danger of Strong AI could be plausible even in a religious framework (indeed, possibly even more so if one thinks that an intelligent artificial entity would be lacking the moral compass that comes from having a “soul”). Similarly, I’ve had serious discussions with Orthodox Jews over way in an Orthodox framework cryonics should actually be halachically mandatory. Almost every single step you list that is a belief related to a specific technology I could probably find at least one religion which is theologically sympathetic to that belief. So if anything, this looks similar to Confucianism in exactly the ways that Confucianism doesn’t look like a classic religion.
Moreover, the aspects of Confucianism that most resemble a religion are precisely the parts that the transhumanist cluster lacks. Confucianism has veneration of ancestors and sacrifices, and a belief in some forms that worshiped ancestors can intervene in the world. These are classical beliefs that we associate with religions. Nothing you gave resembles anything like that. So this argument if anything undermines your claim, there’s an argument over whether Confucianism is a religion, and the most religious-like aspects of Confucianism are precisely the sorts of things which have no analog in the transhumanist cluster you’ve list.
You missed my point entirely. I conceded that I might be using too broad of a category with the title of religion and pointed to an example where there is debate over whether it counts as a religion or not to determine membership in the category. (incidentally part of the argument is over whether ancestor worship is part of Confucianism or is from traditional Chinese “heaven” worship). Since you do not consider Confucianism a religion then Transhumanism is not a religion, as I conceded.
Actually I think mystical experiences with things the believer expects to be true works fine once the religion of the believer has already been modified away from strict truth. This creates groups that believe in very different things and have reinforcing experiences such that if the truth were attempted to be restored it would face social momentum against it rather then be a constant among confusion. As far as I can tell though both tactics have been used depending on what can be made to work.
I consider this to have been covered in theOtherDave line of discussions.