If Sam has specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition and is doing so voluntarily and with out profit to himself then what he is practicing is indeed pure religion. “Pure religion is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27) However, this is not what is generally thought of as religion and is not regulated as such.
If Sam has specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition and is doing so for profit then what he is doing is a business and not a religion, at least by itself.
If Sam does not have specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition then we may be getting into a belief structure that needs to be looked at in considering if it is a religion. If he has any of the structure to his beliefs mentioned in the Wiki article then it would indeed count as a religion. If he does not have the structured beliefs then it does not count as a religion.
If Sam has phrases or words that lets him identify those in the “in” group then that of necessity introduces some amount of bias when dealing with those that are not in that group. However, this is not just a characteristic of religion as it is seen with RPG players, technical fields, among friends, and in other situations.
Teaching that it might be possible to enhance human capacity should, by itself, be non-controversial (e.g. glasses, prosthetics, eye surgery, heart surgery, and tool use in general). In fact, enhancing our own capacity above its natural limits is what defines humans in the first place.
It is when the teachings reaches into theoretical structures that are not grounded in current reality but on beliefs that the problem may arise. Stick to beliefs about technology within the next ten years and you will be fine, go beyond ten years and you are essentially saying that fusion power will arrive in twenty years (or strong AI). Except instead of the one technology that you are working on you list off dozens more equivalents of fusion power and then dozens more for each successive decade past the first. It quickly moves from being science to becoming religion.
So teaching that regenerating organs might soon be common place is not a religious statement. Teaching that humans will be able to rewrite ourselves in order to make Chimeras is. Teaching that computers will most likely continue to increase in processing power and that Strong AI might be possible is not a religious statement. Teaching that not only is Strong AI possible but that humans will be uploaded is. Hopefully you can see the distinction.
It is when the teachings reaches into theoretical structures that are not grounded in current reality but on beliefs that the problem may arise. Stick to beliefs about technology within the next ten years and you will be fine, go beyond ten years and you are essentially saying that fusion power will arrive in twenty years (or strong AI). Except instead of the one technology that you are working on you list off dozens more equivalents of fusion power and then dozens more for each successive decade past the first. It quickly moves from being science to becoming religion.
So I understand what you mean, but I don’t understand why you mean it. That is, this seems to be an extremely abnormal, somewhat vague, notion of religion and creates serious issues of where the lines are that are at best very blurry. I don’t think that most people would use religion to include any people trying to make long-term predictions about technology. In one of the World Book encyclopedia year books from the 1960s (I don’t remember the exact year unfortunately, I can go look it up when I return next to my parents’ house), there’s an essay by Issac Asimov about the future of space travel. He describes a large set of milestones that he expects over the next 300 years and when they should occur. Would teaching that Asimov made those predictions be too religious in your view? Wold it matter if he had a bunch of people who took those predictions very seriously? And if they thought that people should be educated about them? And if they said things like “we should do this because this is the last frontier” and “So there’s the choice in life. One either grows or one decays; Grow or die. I think we should grow.” Is that too religious?
This is especially relevant in the context of a legal setting since you care in part about whether any of these ideas get taught or mentioned in schools. If you tried on this sort of basis to argue that discussing uploading and strong AI in public schools was unconstitutional, you’d probably be laughed out of court.
Would teaching that Asimov made those predictions be too religious in your view?
No, that is a fact that can be confirmed.
it matter if he had a bunch of people who took those predictions very seriously?
How are they taking it seriously? Are they sitting around designing rockets without having studied how to do so and without the ability to implement those designs? Are they fervently believing the predictions but not attempting to do things that are likely to help them come true? How much of their world view is affected by these predictions?
Not having specifics I am inclined to say most likely no.
if they thought that people should be educated about them?
I am a biased judge on this point. I am in favor of space travel. I know Asimov was as well. I think that Asimov was in a position to know something about space travel so therefore I am in favor of educating people about whatever he said (unless he said something completely crazy).
Is that too religious?
It would depend on the context.
If you tried on this sort of basis to argue that discussing uploading and strong AI in public schools was unconstitutional, you’d probably be laughed out of court.
Strong AI would get me laughed out of court by itself (probably). Uploading however could be made into a decent case.
Even stronger then someone that did not believe in the specifics of transhumanism would be someone that did believe in transhumanism attempting to gain the status of a religion. That would in my opinion get through the courts without any difficulties.
Would teaching that Asimov made those predictions be too religious in your view?
No, that is a fact that can be confirmed.
Ok. So why isn’t the fact that serious philosophers like David Chalmers find uploading plausible not something that can be taught in public schools?
I think that Asimov was in a position to know something about space travel so therefore I am in favor of educating people about whatever he said (unless he said something completely crazy).
The standard of what constitutes a religion for purposes of First Amendment issues is complicated and subject to dispute, but no legal scholar thinks that “I think he was correct” is a reason to include a religious statement in school. The correctness of a religion cannot be correct. (Incidentally, according to the Asimov essay we should have had a colony on Mars about 20 years ago and should be preparing our mission to Pluto.)
Strong AI would get me laughed out of court by itself (probably). Uploading however could be made into a decent case.
Really? I’m curious as to how you would present such a case.
Even stronger then someone that did not believe in the specifics of transhumanism would be someone that did believe in transhumanism attempting to gain the status of a religion. That would in my opinion get through the courts without any difficulties.
we should have had a colony on Mars about 20 years ago and should be preparing our mission to Pluto.
That was the plan, Apollo was supposed to be a sustained and expanding program with nuclear rockets following shortly after. Instead we got the space shuttle and billions spent on programs that go nowhere with any cheap or good technology getting discarded or sold as implementing it would cause unemployment in certain key congressional districts.
serious philosophers like David Chalmers find uploading plausible not something that can be taught in public schools?
Assuming you have a public school that teaches anything on philosophy then I don’t think this is a problem.
Can you expand?
The definition for a religion is fairly broad, pretty much if you claim to be a religion and believe the claims that you make then you are considered a religion. So if say SIAI wished to incorporate as a religion I am pretty sure it could and if challenged could point to the meet-up groups, these boards, and the training that it does and probably not even have to go to an appellate court on the issue.
If Sam has specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition and is doing so voluntarily and with out profit to himself then what he is practicing is indeed pure religion. “Pure religion is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” (James 1:27) However, this is not what is generally thought of as religion and is not regulated as such.
If Sam has specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition and is doing so for profit then what he is doing is a business and not a religion, at least by itself.
If Sam does not have specific ways that are currently applicable in transforming the human condition then we may be getting into a belief structure that needs to be looked at in considering if it is a religion. If he has any of the structure to his beliefs mentioned in the Wiki article then it would indeed count as a religion. If he does not have the structured beliefs then it does not count as a religion.
If Sam has phrases or words that lets him identify those in the “in” group then that of necessity introduces some amount of bias when dealing with those that are not in that group. However, this is not just a characteristic of religion as it is seen with RPG players, technical fields, among friends, and in other situations.
Teaching that it might be possible to enhance human capacity should, by itself, be non-controversial (e.g. glasses, prosthetics, eye surgery, heart surgery, and tool use in general). In fact, enhancing our own capacity above its natural limits is what defines humans in the first place.
It is when the teachings reaches into theoretical structures that are not grounded in current reality but on beliefs that the problem may arise. Stick to beliefs about technology within the next ten years and you will be fine, go beyond ten years and you are essentially saying that fusion power will arrive in twenty years (or strong AI). Except instead of the one technology that you are working on you list off dozens more equivalents of fusion power and then dozens more for each successive decade past the first. It quickly moves from being science to becoming religion.
So teaching that regenerating organs might soon be common place is not a religious statement. Teaching that humans will be able to rewrite ourselves in order to make Chimeras is. Teaching that computers will most likely continue to increase in processing power and that Strong AI might be possible is not a religious statement. Teaching that not only is Strong AI possible but that humans will be uploaded is. Hopefully you can see the distinction.
So I understand what you mean, but I don’t understand why you mean it. That is, this seems to be an extremely abnormal, somewhat vague, notion of religion and creates serious issues of where the lines are that are at best very blurry. I don’t think that most people would use religion to include any people trying to make long-term predictions about technology. In one of the World Book encyclopedia year books from the 1960s (I don’t remember the exact year unfortunately, I can go look it up when I return next to my parents’ house), there’s an essay by Issac Asimov about the future of space travel. He describes a large set of milestones that he expects over the next 300 years and when they should occur. Would teaching that Asimov made those predictions be too religious in your view? Wold it matter if he had a bunch of people who took those predictions very seriously? And if they thought that people should be educated about them? And if they said things like “we should do this because this is the last frontier” and “So there’s the choice in life. One either grows or one decays; Grow or die. I think we should grow.” Is that too religious?
This is especially relevant in the context of a legal setting since you care in part about whether any of these ideas get taught or mentioned in schools. If you tried on this sort of basis to argue that discussing uploading and strong AI in public schools was unconstitutional, you’d probably be laughed out of court.
No, that is a fact that can be confirmed.
How are they taking it seriously? Are they sitting around designing rockets without having studied how to do so and without the ability to implement those designs? Are they fervently believing the predictions but not attempting to do things that are likely to help them come true? How much of their world view is affected by these predictions?
Not having specifics I am inclined to say most likely no.
I am a biased judge on this point. I am in favor of space travel. I know Asimov was as well. I think that Asimov was in a position to know something about space travel so therefore I am in favor of educating people about whatever he said (unless he said something completely crazy).
It would depend on the context.
Strong AI would get me laughed out of court by itself (probably). Uploading however could be made into a decent case.
Even stronger then someone that did not believe in the specifics of transhumanism would be someone that did believe in transhumanism attempting to gain the status of a religion. That would in my opinion get through the courts without any difficulties.
Ok. So why isn’t the fact that serious philosophers like David Chalmers find uploading plausible not something that can be taught in public schools?
The standard of what constitutes a religion for purposes of First Amendment issues is complicated and subject to dispute, but no legal scholar thinks that “I think he was correct” is a reason to include a religious statement in school. The correctness of a religion cannot be correct. (Incidentally, according to the Asimov essay we should have had a colony on Mars about 20 years ago and should be preparing our mission to Pluto.)
Really? I’m curious as to how you would present such a case.
I’m not sure what you mean. Can you expand?
That was the plan, Apollo was supposed to be a sustained and expanding program with nuclear rockets following shortly after. Instead we got the space shuttle and billions spent on programs that go nowhere with any cheap or good technology getting discarded or sold as implementing it would cause unemployment in certain key congressional districts.
Assuming you have a public school that teaches anything on philosophy then I don’t think this is a problem.
The definition for a religion is fairly broad, pretty much if you claim to be a religion and believe the claims that you make then you are considered a religion. So if say SIAI wished to incorporate as a religion I am pretty sure it could and if challenged could point to the meet-up groups, these boards, and the training that it does and probably not even have to go to an appellate court on the issue.
I think I understand the distinction you’re making, yes. Thanks for clarifying.