Not quite. In the sim case, we along with our world exist as multiple copies—one original along with some number of sims. It’s really important to make this distinction, it totally changes the relevant decision theory.
If our world is not simulated, there’s nothing we do can make it simulated. We can work towards other simulations, but that’s not us.
No—because we exist as a set of copies which always takes the same actions. If we (in the future) create simulations of our past selves, then we are already today (also) those simulations.
Whether it’s not quite or yes quite depends on whether one accepts you idea of the identity as relative, fuzzy, and smeared out over a lot of copies. I don’t.
Actually the sim argument doesn’t depend on fuzzy smeared out identity. The copy issue is orthogonal and it arises in any type of multiverse.
we exist as a set of copies
Do you state this as a fact?
It is given in the sim scenario. I said this in reply to your statement “there’s nothing we do can make it simulated”.
The statement is incorrect because we are uncertain on our true existential state. And moreover, we have the power to change that state. The first original version of ourselves can create many other copies.
If the identity isn’t smeared then our world—our specific world—is either simulated or not.
Sure. But we don’t know which copy we are, and all copies make the same decisions.
Uncertainty doesn’t grant the power to change the status from not-simulated to simulated.
Each individual copy is either simulated or not, and nothing each individual copy does can change that—true. However, all of the copies output the same decisions, and each copy can not determine it’s true existential status.
So the uncertainty is critically important—because the distribution itself can be manipulated by producing more copies. By creating simulations in the future, you alter the distribution by creating more sim copies such that it is thus more likely that one has been a sim the whole time.
Draw out the graph and perhaps it will make more sense.
It doesn’t actually violate physical causality—the acuasality is only relative—an (intentional) illusion due to lack of knowledge.
all copies make the same decisions … all of the copies output the same decisions
All copies might make the same decisions, but the originals make different decisions.
Remember how upthread you talked about copies being relative and imperfect images of the originals? This means that the set of copies and the singleton of originals are different.
As individual variants they may have slight differences (less so for more advanced sims constructed later), but that doesn’t matter.
The ‘decision’ we are talking about here is an abstract high level decision or belief concerning whether one will support the construction of historical sims (financially, politically, etc). The numerous versions of a person might occasionally make different decisions here and there for exactly what word to use or what not, but they will (necessarily by design) agree on major life decisions.
Remember how upthread you talked about copies being relative and imperfect images of the originals?
Different levels of success require only getting close enough in mindspace, and is highly relative to one’s subjective knowledge of the person.
What matters most is consistency. It’s not like the average person remembers everything they said a few years ago, so that 10^10 figure is extremely generous. Our memory is actually fairly poor.
There will be multiple versions of past people—just as we have multiple biographies today. Clearly there is some objective sense in which some versions are more authentic, but this isn’t nearly as important as you seem to think—and it is far less important than historical consistency with the rest of the world.
Given all this I can’t see how you insist that copies make the same decisions as originals. In fact, in your quote you even have different copies making different decisions (“multiple versions”).
The different versions arise from multiverse considerations. The obvious basic route to sim capture is recreating very close copies that experience everything we remember having experienced—a recreation of our exact specific historical timeline/branch.
But even recreating other versions corresponding to other nearby branches in the multiverse could work and is potentially more computationally efficient. The net effect is the same: it raises the probabillity that we exist in a sim created by some other version/branch.
So there are two notions of historical ‘accuracy’. The first being accuracy in terms of exact match with a specific timeline, the other being accuracy in terms of matching only samples from the overall multiverse distribution.
Success only requires a high total probability that we are in a sim. It doesn’t matter much which specific historical timeline creates the sim.
The idea of decision agreement still applies across different versions in the multiverse. It doesn’t require exact agreement with every micro decision, only general agreement on the key decisions involving sim creation.
Not quite. In the sim case, we along with our world exist as multiple copies—one original along with some number of sims. It’s really important to make this distinction, it totally changes the relevant decision theory.
No—because we exist as a set of copies which always takes the same actions. If we (in the future) create simulations of our past selves, then we are already today (also) those simulations.
Whether it’s not quite or yes quite depends on whether one accepts you idea of the identity as relative, fuzzy, and smeared out over a lot of copies. I don’t.
Do you state this as a fact?
Actually the sim argument doesn’t depend on fuzzy smeared out identity. The copy issue is orthogonal and it arises in any type of multiverse.
It is given in the sim scenario. I said this in reply to your statement “there’s nothing we do can make it simulated”.
The statement is incorrect because we are uncertain on our true existential state. And moreover, we have the power to change that state. The first original version of ourselves can create many other copies.
If the identity isn’t smeared then our world—our specific world—is either simulated or not.
Uncertainty doesn’t grant the power to change the status from not-simulated to simulated.
Sure. But we don’t know which copy we are, and all copies make the same decisions.
Each individual copy is either simulated or not, and nothing each individual copy does can change that—true. However, all of the copies output the same decisions, and each copy can not determine it’s true existential status.
So the uncertainty is critically important—because the distribution itself can be manipulated by producing more copies. By creating simulations in the future, you alter the distribution by creating more sim copies such that it is thus more likely that one has been a sim the whole time.
Draw out the graph and perhaps it will make more sense.
It doesn’t actually violate physical causality—the acuasality is only relative—an (intentional) illusion due to lack of knowledge.
All copies might make the same decisions, but the originals make different decisions.
Remember how upthread you talked about copies being relative and imperfect images of the originals? This means that the set of copies and the singleton of originals are different.
As individual variants they may have slight differences (less so for more advanced sims constructed later), but that doesn’t matter.
The ‘decision’ we are talking about here is an abstract high level decision or belief concerning whether one will support the construction of historical sims (financially, politically, etc). The numerous versions of a person might occasionally make different decisions here and there for exactly what word to use or what not, but they will (necessarily by design) agree on major life decisions.
I never said “imperfect images”—that’s your beef.
Let me quote you:
Given all this I can’t see how you insist that copies make the same decisions as originals. In fact, in your quote you even have different copies making different decisions (“multiple versions”).
The different versions arise from multiverse considerations. The obvious basic route to sim capture is recreating very close copies that experience everything we remember having experienced—a recreation of our exact specific historical timeline/branch.
But even recreating other versions corresponding to other nearby branches in the multiverse could work and is potentially more computationally efficient. The net effect is the same: it raises the probabillity that we exist in a sim created by some other version/branch.
So there are two notions of historical ‘accuracy’. The first being accuracy in terms of exact match with a specific timeline, the other being accuracy in terms of matching only samples from the overall multiverse distribution.
Success only requires a high total probability that we are in a sim. It doesn’t matter much which specific historical timeline creates the sim.
The idea of decision agreement still applies across different versions in the multiverse. It doesn’t require exact agreement with every micro decision, only general agreement on the key decisions involving sim creation.