We should also note that the government wouldn’t control how titleholders are using their land, as long as they are using it efficiently enough to pay the land value tax.
No practical Georgist would say that we should start taxing land at 100% of its value overnight. Any conversion over to a Georgist taxation system would have to be a gradual process, taking at least 30 years in order to give everybody enough time to re-adjust their personal finances, especially for the people who are relying on land speculation as part of their retirement portfolio. But once society is through that, the economy will be better off than it was before the transition and it should be smooth cruising from there on out.
No practical Georgist would say that we should start taxing land at 100% of its value overnight. Any conversion over to a Georgist taxation system would have to be a gradual process, taking at least 30 years in order to give everybody enough time to re-adjust their personal finances,
It’s comments like this that really confuse me about why anyone I respect is even talking about this. I just can’t take it seriously. In the current system where some land is privately owned, and can be inherited as part of an estate, 30 years is nowhere near sufficient for this transition to go without significant impact. Probably off by a factor of 3 or more. And even THEN, there will be a threshold effect somewhere (my guess is in the 20-30% of assessed land-only rent, but it will depend on details), where people actually understand what’s going on and revolt. Without a plan to actually recognize that this is a massive government takeover of currently-private assets, this is just dorm-room dreaming.
Tax codes change in small ways the whole time without much warning. So the idea of a giant taxation shift taking place over 30 or 40 years doesn’t seem ridiculous to me. For historical comparison I found this graph on UK income tax. Income tax was 0% up until 1909. Then it increased to over 90% in the next 32 years. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UK_top_income_tax_and_inequality.png yes, the world wars obviously had a lot to do with it. But if it had instead gone from 0% to 25% that would still have been a huge shift.
The world can change fast, and all changes have winners and loosers, so I am not sure this is the right place to attack Georgism.
I wrote at least 30 years. 30 years may not be enough to have a smooth transition. A transition will probably also take less time if it occurs right after a real estate bubble pops.
Nobody is denying that a transition may have some economic losers, but the same is true of any political system that you choose. Plenty of people said the same thing when all the slaves in the United States were emancipated, which resulted in the largest property loss in US history. It obviously sucked for the slave owners to lose trillions of dollars worth of property, but I don’t think anyone today would argue that that was a bad political move, even though it had significant consequences at the time.
Some people may not like the transition, but the whole point of the transition is to achieve a more stable and more efficient economic system, in the long run. Even if the transition period is somewhat turbulent, I’d argue that that’s still better than having to deal with a real estate boom and bust every ~18 years (on average). People might criticize the transition, but the criticisms would have more weight if they apply to the Georgist system after the transition. That would be more productive because if anyone can prove that Georgism is not worth switching to, then there’s no point in doing the transition in the first place. If there are no valid arguments against Georgism after the transition, then we need to ask what we can to make the transition go as smoothly as possible.
Some people may not like the transition, but the whole point of the transition is to achieve a more stable and more efficient economic system, in the long run. Even if the transition period is somewhat turbulent, I’d argue that that’s still better than having to deal with <current problems>
Said every revolutionary ever. Thanks for the conversation, I think I understand our cruxes. I do legitimately fear and disagree with the idea and its supporters, not just misunderstand the purpose or implementation. Bowing out now—I’ll continue to read responses, but no more posts, for a while at least.
I’m not a revolutionary. I’m a reformist. As I’ve already said, I want a gradual transition to Georgism. That’s what I support, and I do not endorse a revolutionary transition to Georgism.
The transition to Georgism doesn’t have to be a revolution. The abolition of slavery in the US wasn’t really a revolution either. Slavery was gradually outlawed in the northern states, and then it eventually got outlawed nationwide. Yes, it was a radical social change, but everybody today agrees that it was the right thing to do. Abolishing slavery lead to a wealthier and more prosperous society.
Since we arguing within the context of creating an ideal society, pointing out that Georgism could financially hurt landowners is not an argument against Georgism if Georgism would create a better society as a whole. It’s as good of an argument as saying “the slaveowners will lose a lot of property if we abolish slavery, therefore we shouldn’t outlaw slavery”. A successful society is supposed to benefit the collective. Rent-seeking doesn’t generate any wealth, nor does it provide any value for society.
Although you don’t want to respond anymore, I believe that many of your remaining questions can answered by the KAALVTN essay collection.
Yes, in my Georgism FAQs, I’ve partially explained how Georgists have very different goals and motives from Communists.
We should also note that the government wouldn’t control how titleholders are using their land, as long as they are using it efficiently enough to pay the land value tax.
No practical Georgist would say that we should start taxing land at 100% of its value overnight. Any conversion over to a Georgist taxation system would have to be a gradual process, taking at least 30 years in order to give everybody enough time to re-adjust their personal finances, especially for the people who are relying on land speculation as part of their retirement portfolio. But once society is through that, the economy will be better off than it was before the transition and it should be smooth cruising from there on out.
There is a different Georgism FAQs that is more comprehensive than the one that I’ve written (KAALVTN). It might help explain what the new economic equilibrium will be like. It’s a pretty big topic to breakdown, and answering it depends on how detailed you want the explanation to be.
It’s comments like this that really confuse me about why anyone I respect is even talking about this. I just can’t take it seriously. In the current system where some land is privately owned, and can be inherited as part of an estate, 30 years is nowhere near sufficient for this transition to go without significant impact. Probably off by a factor of 3 or more. And even THEN, there will be a threshold effect somewhere (my guess is in the 20-30% of assessed land-only rent, but it will depend on details), where people actually understand what’s going on and revolt. Without a plan to actually recognize that this is a massive government takeover of currently-private assets, this is just dorm-room dreaming.
Tax codes change in small ways the whole time without much warning. So the idea of a giant taxation shift taking place over 30 or 40 years doesn’t seem ridiculous to me. For historical comparison I found this graph on UK income tax. Income tax was 0% up until 1909. Then it increased to over 90% in the next 32 years. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UK_top_income_tax_and_inequality.png
yes, the world wars obviously had a lot to do with it. But if it had instead gone from 0% to 25% that would still have been a huge shift.
The world can change fast, and all changes have winners and loosers, so I am not sure this is the right place to attack Georgism.
I wrote at least 30 years. 30 years may not be enough to have a smooth transition. A transition will probably also take less time if it occurs right after a real estate bubble pops.
Nobody is denying that a transition may have some economic losers, but the same is true of any political system that you choose. Plenty of people said the same thing when all the slaves in the United States were emancipated, which resulted in the largest property loss in US history. It obviously sucked for the slave owners to lose trillions of dollars worth of property, but I don’t think anyone today would argue that that was a bad political move, even though it had significant consequences at the time.
Some people may not like the transition, but the whole point of the transition is to achieve a more stable and more efficient economic system, in the long run. Even if the transition period is somewhat turbulent, I’d argue that that’s still better than having to deal with a real estate boom and bust every ~18 years (on average). People might criticize the transition, but the criticisms would have more weight if they apply to the Georgist system after the transition. That would be more productive because if anyone can prove that Georgism is not worth switching to, then there’s no point in doing the transition in the first place. If there are no valid arguments against Georgism after the transition, then we need to ask what we can to make the transition go as smoothly as possible.
Said every revolutionary ever. Thanks for the conversation, I think I understand our cruxes. I do legitimately fear and disagree with the idea and its supporters, not just misunderstand the purpose or implementation. Bowing out now—I’ll continue to read responses, but no more posts, for a while at least.
I’m not a revolutionary. I’m a reformist. As I’ve already said, I want a gradual transition to Georgism. That’s what I support, and I do not endorse a revolutionary transition to Georgism.
The transition to Georgism doesn’t have to be a revolution. The abolition of slavery in the US wasn’t really a revolution either. Slavery was gradually outlawed in the northern states, and then it eventually got outlawed nationwide. Yes, it was a radical social change, but everybody today agrees that it was the right thing to do. Abolishing slavery lead to a wealthier and more prosperous society.
Since we arguing within the context of creating an ideal society, pointing out that Georgism could financially hurt landowners is not an argument against Georgism if Georgism would create a better society as a whole. It’s as good of an argument as saying “the slaveowners will lose a lot of property if we abolish slavery, therefore we shouldn’t outlaw slavery”. A successful society is supposed to benefit the collective. Rent-seeking doesn’t generate any wealth, nor does it provide any value for society.
Although you don’t want to respond anymore, I believe that many of your remaining questions can answered by the KAALVTN essay collection.