I agree with the sentiment, here, but I also think it’s a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, and that with a bit of work we can come up with some norms that we’re already using that we’d like to spread. Rationalist taboo comes to mind, and actually updating based on evidence, and generally changing one’s behavior to match one’s beliefs. That last one seems to require a bit more give and take than just handing someone a set of rules, but I think that’s a good thing, and we could streamline the process by coming up with a list of common beliefs and behavioral implications thereof (cryo, for example).
Yes, I think it’s a case of codifying the norms that are already held. Taking care to watch out for verbal overshadowing and similar errors.
The fears expressed by cousin_it and Cayenne are quite reasonable ones to hold, since every cause wants to be a cult. Perhaps take care to facilitate schisms and stay on good terms with them, to avoid the rules ossifying into detached levers and hence lost purposes?
It’s not a knee-jerk reaction, but more like a visceral rejection. The thought of this community becoming something with the feel of the church I grew up in makes me feel sick, and if it happened I would walk away and never look back. This is certainly a bias, but I would still do it.
We need to have a clear and concise list of taboos, skills, and beliefs that we want to make into norms, and then the whole community has to talk them over and make sure that we really, really want to make them into our norms. If we’re going to start adopting practices from other groups, I believe this should be our highest priority.
It’s not a knee-jerk reaction, but more like a visceral rejection. The thought of this community becoming something with the feel of the church I grew up in makes me feel sick, and if it happened I would walk away and never look back. This is certainly a bias, but I would still do it.
I noticed your comment about being ex-Mormon after I wrote the grandparent. Even without that context, but especially with it, this is reasonable, and a good warning signal for us to look out for. Please try to give us a heads-up if we start getting close to that point, too, ok?
In a more general sense, I do think it’s important to keep the look-and-feel of any organizational structure we put together different from the general look-and-feel of churches. I see a few advantages to this, most obviously that it will avoid driving away non-rationalist atheists and it will help remove us from direct competition with churches so that people who ‘already have a religion, thanks’ don’t see that as a reason not to check us out.
We need to have a clear and concise list of taboos, skills, and beliefs that we want to make into norms, and then the whole community has to talk them over and make sure that we really, really want to make them into our norms. If we’re going to start adopting practices from other groups, I believe this should be our highest priority.
Absolutely.
Also note: None of the above is intended as an actual endorsement of any particular plan. We should figure out what we might do before we decide whether to do that thing, as far as I’m concerned, and we’re still in the first stage of that.
Well, to be slightly more clear, I am trans-gender. This is a sin in the LDS church, since the surgeries and hormones ‘desecrate my temple’ (temple == body). There is a limit to how much discrimination against ANY group I can stand before I leave, even if that group is ‘those people that want to kill us because we don’t believe in their god’.
At the same time, I really dislike the idea that I might be keeping a group from succeeding by giving negative input. I’m fairly likely to just withdraw without much fanfare if I decide that that is what’s happening, since I hate drama and making a scene about something like that would feel like an attempted hostage situation. Just no.
Since I believe in the ‘step-forward’ method of getting things done, I’ll start a discussion now to try to codify our norms.
Edit—please disregard this post, especially the last part. Empirical testing shows that I am not good at this kind of thing.
Some of it is difficult to pull apart into clear thought, but I’ll try.
I don’t want to have a list of groups I have to hate to belong. I don’t want to have someone trying to control my behavior by defining things as ‘sin’. I don’t want to be told ‘we love you, we just don’t like your actions’, when it’s clear that there is no love involved in any case. I don’t want to have to remember people and feel sorry that they’re part of a malignant memeplex, and that I can’t do anything to help them. I don’t want to dread going to a meet because I don’t fit in.
No, I really don’t like the LDS church. That’s probably never going to change, though I’ll try not to influence others’ decisions on the matter. I don’t hate the members, I just feel sad when I think of them, and of my ex-family.
I don’t hate the members, I just feel sad when I think of them, and of my ex-family.
That makes me sad too. I don’t have a particularly negative attitude towards religion (alll my personal interactions with religions and religious people have been pretty positive and haven’t included any of the aspects on your list) but I hear stories like yours about the incredibly toxic things people can do with their religions, and it depresses me, mostly because I don’t think it’s purely a symptom of people being religious. Otherwise, how could nearly all the religious people I’ve met be more accepting and less hypocritical about their daily life decisions than my atheist-by-default friends? It’s more a symptom of people being flawed humans, and that is depressing.
How much of what you don’t like about LDS is entangled with the organizational structure?
I don’t have a strong answer, just some concerns.
It may be that a lot of what’s wrong there is having a hard boundary between members and non-members. If so, rationalists may be able to beat that one by wanting people to be more rational, though there do seem to be some firm lines in this community, like being obligated to be a materialist.
I don’t want to have to remember people and feel sorry that they’re part of a malignant memeplex, and that I can’t do anything to help them.
You may be stuck with that one, especially in regards to cryonics, at least in the sense that you can’t do much to help them.
If so, rationalists may be able to beat that one by wanting people to be more rational, though there do seem to be some firm lines in this community, like being obligated to be a materialist.
I’m not sure what you mean by the word “materialist” in this context. Could you explain?
It would have to be something I would want to overcome. I came here because the sequences were fascinating to read, but I find more and more that I simply can’t consider myself to be rational in any meaningful way. I probably should try to overcome it, I suppose.
I agree with the sentiment, here, but I also think it’s a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, and that with a bit of work we can come up with some norms that we’re already using that we’d like to spread. Rationalist taboo comes to mind, and actually updating based on evidence, and generally changing one’s behavior to match one’s beliefs. That last one seems to require a bit more give and take than just handing someone a set of rules, but I think that’s a good thing, and we could streamline the process by coming up with a list of common beliefs and behavioral implications thereof (cryo, for example).
Yes, I think it’s a case of codifying the norms that are already held. Taking care to watch out for verbal overshadowing and similar errors.
The fears expressed by cousin_it and Cayenne are quite reasonable ones to hold, since every cause wants to be a cult. Perhaps take care to facilitate schisms and stay on good terms with them, to avoid the rules ossifying into detached levers and hence lost purposes?
Not that examples spring to mind. Perhaps annual Mixed Rationalist Arts tournaments, to keep a reality check in play.
(Heck, I think that one’s a great first step, if we can work out what to compete on.)
It’s not a knee-jerk reaction, but more like a visceral rejection. The thought of this community becoming something with the feel of the church I grew up in makes me feel sick, and if it happened I would walk away and never look back. This is certainly a bias, but I would still do it.
We need to have a clear and concise list of taboos, skills, and beliefs that we want to make into norms, and then the whole community has to talk them over and make sure that we really, really want to make them into our norms. If we’re going to start adopting practices from other groups, I believe this should be our highest priority.
Edit—please disregard this, it’s needlessly prescriptive.
I noticed your comment about being ex-Mormon after I wrote the grandparent. Even without that context, but especially with it, this is reasonable, and a good warning signal for us to look out for. Please try to give us a heads-up if we start getting close to that point, too, ok?
In a more general sense, I do think it’s important to keep the look-and-feel of any organizational structure we put together different from the general look-and-feel of churches. I see a few advantages to this, most obviously that it will avoid driving away non-rationalist atheists and it will help remove us from direct competition with churches so that people who ‘already have a religion, thanks’ don’t see that as a reason not to check us out.
Absolutely.
Also note: None of the above is intended as an actual endorsement of any particular plan. We should figure out what we might do before we decide whether to do that thing, as far as I’m concerned, and we’re still in the first stage of that.
Well, to be slightly more clear, I am trans-gender. This is a sin in the LDS church, since the surgeries and hormones ‘desecrate my temple’ (temple == body). There is a limit to how much discrimination against ANY group I can stand before I leave, even if that group is ‘those people that want to kill us because we don’t believe in their god’.
At the same time, I really dislike the idea that I might be keeping a group from succeeding by giving negative input. I’m fairly likely to just withdraw without much fanfare if I decide that that is what’s happening, since I hate drama and making a scene about something like that would feel like an attempted hostage situation. Just no.
Since I believe in the ‘step-forward’ method of getting things done, I’ll start a discussion now to try to codify our norms.
Edit—please disregard this post, especially the last part. Empirical testing shows that I am not good at this kind of thing.
Could you expand on the things about LDS that you don’t want to see replicated among rationalists?
Some of it is difficult to pull apart into clear thought, but I’ll try.
I don’t want to have a list of groups I have to hate to belong. I don’t want to have someone trying to control my behavior by defining things as ‘sin’. I don’t want to be told ‘we love you, we just don’t like your actions’, when it’s clear that there is no love involved in any case. I don’t want to have to remember people and feel sorry that they’re part of a malignant memeplex, and that I can’t do anything to help them. I don’t want to dread going to a meet because I don’t fit in.
No, I really don’t like the LDS church. That’s probably never going to change, though I’ll try not to influence others’ decisions on the matter. I don’t hate the members, I just feel sad when I think of them, and of my ex-family.
Edit—please disregard this post
That makes me sad too. I don’t have a particularly negative attitude towards religion (alll my personal interactions with religions and religious people have been pretty positive and haven’t included any of the aspects on your list) but I hear stories like yours about the incredibly toxic things people can do with their religions, and it depresses me, mostly because I don’t think it’s purely a symptom of people being religious. Otherwise, how could nearly all the religious people I’ve met be more accepting and less hypocritical about their daily life decisions than my atheist-by-default friends? It’s more a symptom of people being flawed humans, and that is depressing.
How much of what you don’t like about LDS is entangled with the organizational structure?
I don’t have a strong answer, just some concerns.
It may be that a lot of what’s wrong there is having a hard boundary between members and non-members. If so, rationalists may be able to beat that one by wanting people to be more rational, though there do seem to be some firm lines in this community, like being obligated to be a materialist.
You may be stuck with that one, especially in regards to cryonics, at least in the sense that you can’t do much to help them.
I’m not sure what you mean by the word “materialist” in this context. Could you explain?
Materialist as in reductionist, as in Thou Art Physics not as in being materialistic.
Ok (sigh of relief). That’s what I thought but I’m not used to seeing the word used to mean ‘reductionist’.
We are all reductionist girls*, living in a reductionist world.
* For a sufficiently broad value of “girls”, or a sufficiently narrow value of “all”.
Not exactly. Strange as it sounds, there are non-reductive materialist philosophers.
It is hard to say.
I have no doubt that rationalists will prevail eventually, and I wish luck to the ones that try.
Edit—please disregard this post
Isn’t this the sort of thing you come here to overcome? Or am I just thinking of our sister site?
It would have to be something I would want to overcome. I came here because the sequences were fascinating to read, but I find more and more that I simply can’t consider myself to be rational in any meaningful way. I probably should try to overcome it, I suppose.