Here are some common uses of the objective/subjective distinction in ethics:
Moral facts are objective1 if they are made true or false by mind-independent facts, otherwise they are subjective1.
Moral facts are objective2 if they are made true or false by facts independent of the opinions of sentient beings, otherwise they are subjective2.
Moral facts are objective3 if they are made true or false by facts independent of the opinions of humans, otherwise they are subjective3.
Hmm, that doesn’t cover the way I understand “objective” and “subjective”—I see them as referring to whether the answer to a question varies from one person to another, i.e. whether they are function of the person speaking. “Is that play interesting?” is subjective4, “Does that play follow the three unities of classical drama?” is objective4 - so to match your pattern it would be something like “Moral facts are objective4 if they are made true or false by facts independent of any single human, otherwise they are subjective4”.
i.e. it seems to me that some things are considered “objective” if they are merely social customs that may not hold in another society in another age.
But my thinking around this isn’t very clear, I’m mostly reacting to the fact that none of the definitions you listed seemed to fit the way I understood the words.
It seems to me that this subjective/objective difference can be somewhat dissolved by noticing (or, if you like, postulating) that “Is that play interesting?” is a different question when asked of Alice than when asked of Bob. The real question is, probably, in one case “Is that play interesting to Alice?” and in the other case “Is that play interesting to Bob?”.
In sentences like “Do you like vanilla ice cream?” it’s more explicit and clear that the meaning of “you” in it must be inferred from context (specifically, the identity of the questionee).
I would postulate that in general a “question” is directly about facts about the universe or mathematics (hopefully grounded in anticipation of sensory experience), but the sentence the question is asked in may contain ambiguous words which require context to interpret. And further, if the sentence together with the context is unambiguous, it indicates a “real question”.
In either case of the first example, the question has a single truth value which doesn’t change depending who you ask, though Alice and Bob may react differently to the sound waves (or light patterns) that are understood as “Is that play interesting?”.
Perhaps the sentences usually called “subjective4 questions” would be those containing such ambiguous words as “interesting” or “sexy”, in regard to which people are likely to suffer from the mind projection fallacy… I don’t know.
It seems to me that this subjective/objective difference can be somewhat dissolved by noticing (or, if you like, postulating) that “Is that play interesting?” is a different question when asked of Alice than when asked of Bob. The real question is, probably, in one case “Is that play interesting to Alice?” and in the other case “Is that play interesting to Bob?”.
I don’t see why that would count as a dissolution. The subjective is defined as varying
with individuals and the objective is defined as not so varying. All that your restatements as ”..”to Alice”, ”..to Bob” do is make that dependence explicit.
Perhaps the sentences usually called “subjective4 questions” would be those containing such ambiguous words as “interesting” or “sexy”,
These words look ambiguous if you expect them to have a single value. They
can be unambiguous if they have well defined values for different people. Subjective-ness isn’t ambiguity.
I guess I just don’t think it’s interesting or in any way special that there are questions that are usually asked by including non-verbal information, or that there are words that refer to “the recipient of this message”.
Wrt “ambiguity” all I mean is that you don’t know what the speaker intended the word to refer to until you know who they were talking to. Steve said “Is that play interesting?” to Alice, implying he wants to know whether Alice found the play interesting. Responding with Bob’s opinion of the play would be unhelpful, which is why you need the context. Maybe “ambiguous” isn’t the best word for that. Whatever.
I guess I just don’t think it’s interesting or in any way special that there are questions that are usually asked by including non-verbal information, or that there are words that refer to “the recipient of this message”.
That would be OK if a) there were a clear distinction between the two categories and/or b) nothing much rode on the distinction.
But neither is the case wrt morallity. a) We don’t have a “usual” practices with regard to moral language. Committed objectivists speak one way, subjectivists another, and many others are undecided b) it is hard to coneive of anything more important than morality—and the two ways of speaking mean something different. Alice can’t wish Bob to be punished just for doing something that’s wrong-for-Alice.
I agree that a very common meaning of objective/subjective is along your lines. In metaethics, it seems the most discussed. But I’d suggest function of the speaker’s beliefs and attitudes, not just function of the speaker. My left hand has five fingers: this truth is a function of the speaker, but if we want to communicate effectively in English, we’d better call this fact objective.
I see them as referring to whether the answer to a question varies from one person to another, i.e. whether they are function of the person speaking. “Is that play interesting?” is subjective4, ”
Answers can vary because people make mistakes about objective issues. You need to
specify ideal agents to define objectivity, or to define subjectivity as answers that properly vary with individuals, ie the individual has the last word on their favourite flavour of ice cream.
Hmm, that doesn’t cover the way I understand “objective” and “subjective”—I see them as referring to whether the answer to a question varies from one person to another, i.e. whether they are function of the person speaking. “Is that play interesting?” is subjective4, “Does that play follow the three unities of classical drama?” is objective4 - so to match your pattern it would be something like “Moral facts are objective4 if they are made true or false by facts independent of any single human, otherwise they are subjective4”.
i.e. it seems to me that some things are considered “objective” if they are merely social customs that may not hold in another society in another age.
But my thinking around this isn’t very clear, I’m mostly reacting to the fact that none of the definitions you listed seemed to fit the way I understood the words.
It seems to me that this subjective/objective difference can be somewhat dissolved by noticing (or, if you like, postulating) that “Is that play interesting?” is a different question when asked of Alice than when asked of Bob. The real question is, probably, in one case “Is that play interesting to Alice?” and in the other case “Is that play interesting to Bob?”.
In sentences like “Do you like vanilla ice cream?” it’s more explicit and clear that the meaning of “you” in it must be inferred from context (specifically, the identity of the questionee).
I would postulate that in general a “question” is directly about facts about the universe or mathematics (hopefully grounded in anticipation of sensory experience), but the sentence the question is asked in may contain ambiguous words which require context to interpret. And further, if the sentence together with the context is unambiguous, it indicates a “real question”.
In either case of the first example, the question has a single truth value which doesn’t change depending who you ask, though Alice and Bob may react differently to the sound waves (or light patterns) that are understood as “Is that play interesting?”.
Perhaps the sentences usually called “subjective4 questions” would be those containing such ambiguous words as “interesting” or “sexy”, in regard to which people are likely to suffer from the mind projection fallacy… I don’t know.
I don’t see why that would count as a dissolution. The subjective is defined as varying with individuals and the objective is defined as not so varying. All that your restatements as ”..”to Alice”, ”..to Bob” do is make that dependence explicit.
These words look ambiguous if you expect them to have a single value. They can be unambiguous if they have well defined values for different people. Subjective-ness isn’t ambiguity.
I guess I just don’t think it’s interesting or in any way special that there are questions that are usually asked by including non-verbal information, or that there are words that refer to “the recipient of this message”.
Wrt “ambiguity” all I mean is that you don’t know what the speaker intended the word to refer to until you know who they were talking to. Steve said “Is that play interesting?” to Alice, implying he wants to know whether Alice found the play interesting. Responding with Bob’s opinion of the play would be unhelpful, which is why you need the context. Maybe “ambiguous” isn’t the best word for that. Whatever.
That would be OK if a) there were a clear distinction between the two categories and/or b) nothing much rode on the distinction.
But neither is the case wrt morallity. a) We don’t have a “usual” practices with regard to moral language. Committed objectivists speak one way, subjectivists another, and many others are undecided b) it is hard to coneive of anything more important than morality—and the two ways of speaking mean something different. Alice can’t wish Bob to be punished just for doing something that’s wrong-for-Alice.
I agree that a very common meaning of objective/subjective is along your lines. In metaethics, it seems the most discussed. But I’d suggest function of the speaker’s beliefs and attitudes, not just function of the speaker. My left hand has five fingers: this truth is a function of the speaker, but if we want to communicate effectively in English, we’d better call this fact objective.
Answers can vary because people make mistakes about objective issues. You need to specify ideal agents to define objectivity, or to define subjectivity as answers that properly vary with individuals, ie the individual has the last word on their favourite flavour of ice cream.
Certainly, there are far more than 3 uses of the objective/subjective distinction! Check for footnote for a pointer to others.