Your examples describe a government which acts in its own interests (rather than by moral ideals )
That’s one way to look at it, but this is more about the actual responses of progressives themselves and I tried to phrase it that way (I.E. “What do we expect the modern sensible progressive to feel?”).
What do you think about the Viet Minh’s genocide against the Hoa? What do you even know about them? Is it anything at all like what you feel about the Holocaust?
What do you feel when you think about John Brown? Do you think about him? Is it at all like your mental image of Timmy McVeigh?
What’s your response to the Liverpool Care Pathway? Is that even on your radar? How about the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, I’m sure you’ve got a strong feeling about that one?
There is a pattern here; supposed moral concerns do not accurately predict how progressives, ordinary progressives not politicians remember, react to most issues. There are patterns of thought and behavior here and elsewhere which simply do not make sense except in the context of systematically eliminating non-aligned bases of power and expanding aligned ones. This is the absolute essence of the issue.
Me, personally? My domain is biology, and am aware that my political opinions on most issues aren’t to be taken any more seriously than the average undergraduate’s opinions. I suppose that makes me the “average progressive”, so maybe that’s a good thing:
Truthfully, none of those are on my radar, and I know nothing about the Holocaust beyond what I learned in school. As far as I’m concerned it’s just one among many terrible genocides, and one that presently gets more attention than the others because it was committed against a group who currently inhabits Western nations. Slavery of African Americans is similar—one among many terrible atrocities which happen to get more attention because the group they were committed against lives among us.
The American public (which includes me) ignores the Hoa because we never see the Hoa and have no clue who they are. I’ve never met a Hoa. There’s no Hoa organizations fighting for increased awareness. If awareness existed, people would care...but it doesn’t, so they don’t. This is what is meant by liberals when we say “privilege”—African Americans and Jews living in the West, as a group, have more privilege than the Hoa of Vietnam. The source of the privilege is that they were born in a Western nation.
The US Government, like most Powers, frequently supports shady, unethical groups in pursuit of its own interests. Saddam Hussein comes to mind as an example of supporting a seedy dictator which came to bite the US in the butt later. It is irrelevant that the Viet Minh and Saddam Hussein are on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum—they were both chosen on “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” logic, to support the United State’s interests at the time.
I never heard of Timmy McVeigh.before today. His wikipedia page doesn’t match your description—it does not mention any “divinely ordained race war”. Do I have the wrong McVeigh?
I learned about John Brown in school, he was mentioned alongside Nat Turner. I understand John Browns emotions of righteous fury. However, he was stupid to attempt such a war. Violence is only rational when the other side will see your power and back down—an all-out fight where one party (the slaves, in this case) are required to put in all their resources will result in slaughter on one or both sides. Even under the premise that you only care about your group and not the other group, a all-out war is an irrational decision. If you intrinsically value human life, the decision is even more irrational. The same applies to McVeigh. If Brown could have actually won—if he had sufficient power to force the other side to negotiate terms rather than all out slaughter, i might have supported it.
Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment / Liverpool QALYs: A sacred value against a secular one. You’ve heard the moral dilemma where you kill 1 healthy patient and take the heart, lung, liver, etc to save 5 people? The utilitarian response seems to say “yes”, and most people’s hearts (including mine) say “no”. In practice, I go with the sacred answer, and the excuse I make is that we need to be able to trust doctors enough to go to hospitals without fear of being killed. In the true, externality-free hypothetical, I confess to being confused.
However, I know that the logic of the Syplillis Experiment was “black people are less important so lets test it on them” and the logic of the Liverpool folks was “Let’s maximize QALY’s”. The latter illicits my sympathies, the former does not. The Liverpool was not on my radar until this conversation, and I remain unsure about what to think of it.
You know, one of the things I keep forgetting is how reasonable people tend to be over here. My flinch-instinct is still very much tuned to other corners of the internet.
Basically, everything you’ve said is consistent and reasonable and utterly dissimilar to most of the progressive stuff I’ve ever seen. My sociology prof’s lectures, articles I read on Jstor, friends/family back home in my yellow dog democrat hometown, the feminist / progressive christian blogs I lurk on, politicians I follow (and often vote for. My options are bad in that sense.). Its obviously the same general pedigree, but a different breed. I’m not particularly sure what to make of it.
I never heard of Timmy McVeigh.before today. His wikipedia page doesn’t match your description—it does not mention any “divinely ordained race war”. Do I have the wrong McVeigh?
You have to scroll a bit; his whole plan was based on a white-supremacist novel called The Turner Diaries. It’s pretty much Battlefield Earth with Psychiatry find-and-replaced with Judaism, even down to the “nuke ’em all” ending. I’ve never read it myself but it’s supposedly very popular in those circles.
That’s one way to look at it, but this is more about the actual responses of progressives themselves and I tried to phrase it that way (I.E. “What do we expect the modern sensible progressive to feel?”).
What do you think about the Viet Minh’s genocide against the Hoa? What do you even know about them? Is it anything at all like what you feel about the Holocaust?
What do you feel when you think about John Brown? Do you think about him? Is it at all like your mental image of Timmy McVeigh?
What’s your response to the Liverpool Care Pathway? Is that even on your radar? How about the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, I’m sure you’ve got a strong feeling about that one?
There is a pattern here; supposed moral concerns do not accurately predict how progressives, ordinary progressives not politicians remember, react to most issues. There are patterns of thought and behavior here and elsewhere which simply do not make sense except in the context of systematically eliminating non-aligned bases of power and expanding aligned ones. This is the absolute essence of the issue.
Me, personally? My domain is biology, and am aware that my political opinions on most issues aren’t to be taken any more seriously than the average undergraduate’s opinions. I suppose that makes me the “average progressive”, so maybe that’s a good thing:
Truthfully, none of those are on my radar, and I know nothing about the Holocaust beyond what I learned in school. As far as I’m concerned it’s just one among many terrible genocides, and one that presently gets more attention than the others because it was committed against a group who currently inhabits Western nations. Slavery of African Americans is similar—one among many terrible atrocities which happen to get more attention because the group they were committed against lives among us.
The American public (which includes me) ignores the Hoa because we never see the Hoa and have no clue who they are. I’ve never met a Hoa. There’s no Hoa organizations fighting for increased awareness. If awareness existed, people would care...but it doesn’t, so they don’t. This is what is meant by liberals when we say “privilege”—African Americans and Jews living in the West, as a group, have more privilege than the Hoa of Vietnam. The source of the privilege is that they were born in a Western nation.
The US Government, like most Powers, frequently supports shady, unethical groups in pursuit of its own interests. Saddam Hussein comes to mind as an example of supporting a seedy dictator which came to bite the US in the butt later. It is irrelevant that the Viet Minh and Saddam Hussein are on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum—they were both chosen on “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” logic, to support the United State’s interests at the time.
I never heard of Timmy McVeigh.before today. His wikipedia page doesn’t match your description—it does not mention any “divinely ordained race war”. Do I have the wrong McVeigh?
I learned about John Brown in school, he was mentioned alongside Nat Turner. I understand John Browns emotions of righteous fury. However, he was stupid to attempt such a war. Violence is only rational when the other side will see your power and back down—an all-out fight where one party (the slaves, in this case) are required to put in all their resources will result in slaughter on one or both sides. Even under the premise that you only care about your group and not the other group, a all-out war is an irrational decision. If you intrinsically value human life, the decision is even more irrational. The same applies to McVeigh. If Brown could have actually won—if he had sufficient power to force the other side to negotiate terms rather than all out slaughter, i might have supported it.
Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment / Liverpool QALYs: A sacred value against a secular one. You’ve heard the moral dilemma where you kill 1 healthy patient and take the heart, lung, liver, etc to save 5 people? The utilitarian response seems to say “yes”, and most people’s hearts (including mine) say “no”. In practice, I go with the sacred answer, and the excuse I make is that we need to be able to trust doctors enough to go to hospitals without fear of being killed. In the true, externality-free hypothetical, I confess to being confused.
However, I know that the logic of the Syplillis Experiment was “black people are less important so lets test it on them” and the logic of the Liverpool folks was “Let’s maximize QALY’s”. The latter illicits my sympathies, the former does not. The Liverpool was not on my radar until this conversation, and I remain unsure about what to think of it.
You know, one of the things I keep forgetting is how reasonable people tend to be over here. My flinch-instinct is still very much tuned to other corners of the internet.
Basically, everything you’ve said is consistent and reasonable and utterly dissimilar to most of the progressive stuff I’ve ever seen. My sociology prof’s lectures, articles I read on Jstor, friends/family back home in my yellow dog democrat hometown, the feminist / progressive christian blogs I lurk on, politicians I follow (and often vote for. My options are bad in that sense.). Its obviously the same general pedigree, but a different breed. I’m not particularly sure what to make of it.
You have to scroll a bit; his whole plan was based on a white-supremacist novel called The Turner Diaries. It’s pretty much Battlefield Earth with Psychiatry find-and-replaced with Judaism, even down to the “nuke ’em all” ending. I’ve never read it myself but it’s supposedly very popular in those circles.