None of these questions make a lot of sense to me unless we first sort out what you mean by ‘morally good’: positively morally good or merely permissible? And I don’t think I would want to say anything like ‘capitalism’ could have a moral valance. Moral predicates attach, it seems to me, to people and their actions first and foremost. I suppose that’s up for debate.
That said and so far as I understand your terms, my answer to (6) is ‘no’, and (7) is ‘no’, and (8) is ‘no’
my answer to (6) is ‘no’, and (7) is ‘no’, and (8) is ‘no’
wait what? So you’re saying that capitalism isn’t morally good, but engaging in it with the aim of personal profit is? That seems to contradict everything you’ve been saying so far.
Unless of course you maintain that...
Moral predicates attach, it seems to me, to people and their actions first and foremost.
(and presumably not to abstract philosophies like capitalism)
How can you say that with a straight face after spending several days debating the morality of a law?
wait what? So you’re saying that capitalism isn’t morally good, but engaging in it with the aim of personal profit is? That seems to contradict everything you’ve been saying so far.
So far as I understand the terms (I’ve asked you to clarify them for me) ‘morally good’ and ‘morally bad’ are contraries, not contradictories. So it’s perfectly possible for something to be neither. I think capitalism, pursuing capitalism for personal gain, and outlawing capitalism are all morally neutral. In part, because these things are too far from the proper objects of moral predicates to earn them one way or the other.
How can you say that with a straight face after spending several days debating the morality of a law?
Well, I think if you review my posts, you’ll find that I’ve never called CR law moral. I’ve called the violation of it under certain aims immoral. The violation is an action undertaken by an individual.
I’ve said that the polity and its laws have moral value, but I don’t think the predicate ‘morally good’ really applies to them. The difference being that the polity and its laws are a significant condition on the moral worth of our own actions and lives. I’m reluctant to call a polity morally good because it could only earn this predicate quite indirectly.
I think capitalism, pursuing capitalism for personal gain, and outlawing capitalism are all morally neutral.
That’s just what I said: That the claim was absurd unless you maintain that the morality of abstract concepts is undefined.
Well, I think if you review my posts, you’ll find that I’ve never called CR law moral. I’ve called the violation of it under certain aims immoral. The violation is an action undertaken by an individual.
You have, however, said that it is possible for a law to be immoral, in which case violating it with the aim of hastening its removal from the books is moral.
So… you’re saying that it’s possible for a law to be immoral, but not for a law to be moral? Or that a law may be moral, but the morality of things like capitalism is necessarily undefined?
So… you’re saying that it’s possible for a law to be immoral, but not for a law to be moral? Or that a law may be moral, but the morality of things like capitalism is necessarily undefined?
I think, in an indirect sense, laws may be moral or immoral. I should think it unsurprising that I should be reluctant to say something so underdefined and general as ‘capitalism is immoral’. My claim is that a certain kind of action, namely one in which a law is knowingly violated for the sake of one’s own profit, is often immoral. The moral quality of the law violated may sometimes produce exceptions to this, but it does not simply follow that an immoral law may be violated with moral impunity.
That said, the case you were originally recommending falls well shy of this gray borderline. You were originally saying that it would be a failure of some kind not to violate the law for the sake of one’s convenience and profit in the case of acquiring books. Since you were explicit that the intention here was the pursuit of one’s self-interest and not the undermining of an immoral law (even if you took this to be a side effect), these finer points seem a little off the track.
If you think CR law is unjust then prescribe to people a plan to have it removed. The widespread violation of the law seems unlikely to do this: note that this tends to make laws more draconian, not less. The large scale public protest of internet communities and companies seems on the other hand to be extraordinarily effective and in the mean time is no kind of legal violation. If I were to audit someone’s time and computer memory, and find that they spent little or no time organizing such protests but had many thousands of dollars worth of illegally acquired CR protected content on their hard drive, I think I would fairly come to the conclusion that their behavior is motivated by nothing other than self-interest. And I don’t think it would be surprising or controversial to say that such a person is behaving immorally insofar as they are breaking the law in that pursuit.
None of these questions make a lot of sense to me unless we first sort out what you mean by ‘morally good’: positively morally good or merely permissible? And I don’t think I would want to say anything like ‘capitalism’ could have a moral valance. Moral predicates attach, it seems to me, to people and their actions first and foremost. I suppose that’s up for debate.
That said and so far as I understand your terms, my answer to (6) is ‘no’, and (7) is ‘no’, and (8) is ‘no’
wait what? So you’re saying that capitalism isn’t morally good, but engaging in it with the aim of personal profit is? That seems to contradict everything you’ve been saying so far.
Unless of course you maintain that...
(and presumably not to abstract philosophies like capitalism)
How can you say that with a straight face after spending several days debating the morality of a law?
So far as I understand the terms (I’ve asked you to clarify them for me) ‘morally good’ and ‘morally bad’ are contraries, not contradictories. So it’s perfectly possible for something to be neither. I think capitalism, pursuing capitalism for personal gain, and outlawing capitalism are all morally neutral. In part, because these things are too far from the proper objects of moral predicates to earn them one way or the other.
Well, I think if you review my posts, you’ll find that I’ve never called CR law moral. I’ve called the violation of it under certain aims immoral. The violation is an action undertaken by an individual.
I’ve said that the polity and its laws have moral value, but I don’t think the predicate ‘morally good’ really applies to them. The difference being that the polity and its laws are a significant condition on the moral worth of our own actions and lives. I’m reluctant to call a polity morally good because it could only earn this predicate quite indirectly.
That’s just what I said: That the claim was absurd unless you maintain that the morality of abstract concepts is undefined.
You have, however, said that it is possible for a law to be immoral, in which case violating it with the aim of hastening its removal from the books is moral.
So… you’re saying that it’s possible for a law to be immoral, but not for a law to be moral? Or that a law may be moral, but the morality of things like capitalism is necessarily undefined?
I think, in an indirect sense, laws may be moral or immoral. I should think it unsurprising that I should be reluctant to say something so underdefined and general as ‘capitalism is immoral’. My claim is that a certain kind of action, namely one in which a law is knowingly violated for the sake of one’s own profit, is often immoral. The moral quality of the law violated may sometimes produce exceptions to this, but it does not simply follow that an immoral law may be violated with moral impunity.
That said, the case you were originally recommending falls well shy of this gray borderline. You were originally saying that it would be a failure of some kind not to violate the law for the sake of one’s convenience and profit in the case of acquiring books. Since you were explicit that the intention here was the pursuit of one’s self-interest and not the undermining of an immoral law (even if you took this to be a side effect), these finer points seem a little off the track.
If you think CR law is unjust then prescribe to people a plan to have it removed. The widespread violation of the law seems unlikely to do this: note that this tends to make laws more draconian, not less. The large scale public protest of internet communities and companies seems on the other hand to be extraordinarily effective and in the mean time is no kind of legal violation. If I were to audit someone’s time and computer memory, and find that they spent little or no time organizing such protests but had many thousands of dollars worth of illegally acquired CR protected content on their hard drive, I think I would fairly come to the conclusion that their behavior is motivated by nothing other than self-interest. And I don’t think it would be surprising or controversial to say that such a person is behaving immorally insofar as they are breaking the law in that pursuit.