The possibility that they are all directed against the public good is too absurd to consider.
That’s not a big deal here; for your argument to fail to go through, we need to be able to claim that the law isn’t good evidence concerning prescriptions for the public good, because a significant proportion of it was written by short-sighted men with no idea of the long-term consequences of their decisions, and an even more significant proportion of it was written to favour special interests.
because a significant proportion of it was written by short-sighted men with no idea of the long-term consequences of their decisions, and an even more significant proportion of it was written to favour special interests.
This is an empirical claim for which I would want some empirical evidence. I’m very wary of anything which looks like political cynicism.
This is an empirical claim for which I would want some empirical evidence.
Same for your assertion that most laws are written for the public good. Yours seems to be the more indefensible prior, since I’m sure you’ll agree that every single ancient/medieval government turned out laws that overwhelmingly favoured entrenched elites over common people. Given that, if modern governments have truly stopped doing that, that would be something extraordinary which merits an explanation.
Also, there’s the fact that short-sighted men are more numerous than far-sighted ones (or would you dispute that as well?), and that the public interest is a small target in the wide space of possible laws, (or do you dispute this, claiming that a large proportion of all possible laws are in the public interest?) you’d expect more bad laws (defined as laws which hinder the public interest, whether intentionally or as a side effect) to get passed than good ones. Then there’s the fact that representatives of special interests can contact those in power more easily than their constituents can. (Dispute that if you will, I have no interest in defending it. It’s easy enough to test: Just try contacting Joe Biden and see how that goes.)
If you don’t dispute any of this, you probably have some over-riding factors in mind that would make it less surprising that despite all this, a large fraction of laws somehow still turn out to be in the public interest.
Same for your assertion that most laws are written for the public good.
True, though I think Tim’s formulation alone lends it some credence: the law is (on his premises) an expression of the publicly desired social arrangements, and the public can be taken to desire the optimal social arrangements, then the law is evidence (not conclusive evidence, but evidence) for what the optimal social arrangements are.
This obviously doesn’t follow for all laws, but it should follow generally. Some laws may serve private interests or incompetently written, but on the whole that can’t be true. No such polity would last a year.
I’m sure you’ll agree that every single ancient/medieval government turned out laws that overwhelmingly favoured entrenched elites over common people.
I’m familiar with only a few ancient legal systems. (ETA: and there’s a strong survivorship bias for the best ones, since the really bad ones tended not to have written law codes). They’re a mixed bag. But I think favoring entrenched elites over common people probably does serve the common good pretty effectively (though so does doing the opposite, and both can be bad too). Legal systems which clearly worked against the public good on the whole, like the various oligarchies set up in Athens following the Peloponnesian war, didn’t last long. I think the only time you really get laws that work on the whole against the public good are in cases where those laws are imposed by a conquerer.
Almost all legal systems on the whole are good on the whole. Some (like ours, and I say this almost regardless of where you live) are vastly better than others. Places that are lawless are really, really horrible. I haven’t spent any time in these places (South Africa is the closest I’ve come) but I’ve spent a lot of time reading about them, especially ancient ones. We’re very lucky to have our bad legal systems.
claiming that a large proportion of all possible laws are in the public interest?
Right, exactly. There are good questions to be raised about any given law, but legal systems on the whole are good for people. Very, very rarely do they do more harm than good. That’s one of the reasons why I think breaking the law is morally significant in every case, though not in every case morally wrong.
Legal systems which clearly worked against the public good on the whole, like the various oligarchies set up in Athens following the Peloponnesian war, didn’t last long.
Of course, if you restrict your search entirely to metal-wielding literate societies seen through the eyes of their own historians (whose expectations of normalcy were completely different from ours) you might get a skewed image of things.
But I think favoring entrenched elites over common people probably does serve the common good pretty effectively (though so does doing the opposite).
We seem to be operating on different definitions of ‘common good’. My definition is along the lines of ‘something that raises the average (standard of living/utilon count/something like that) of a population’. There’s no way that favouring a few people at the expense of a population greater than theirs by two orders of magnitude would do that. (Given the law of diminishing returns, at least.)
The next paragraph is a non-sequitur. I never argued for lawlessness. If I didn’t like my phone, I wouldn’t throw it away and and resolve never to use a phone again. I’d look for a better phone.
Right, exactly. There are good questions to be raised about any given law, but legal systems on the whole are good for people.
Another non-sequitur. I asked about every possible law, not every law that is passed.
Of course, if you restrict your search entirely to metal-wielding literate societies seen through the eyes of their own historians (whose expectations of normalcy were completely different from ours) you might get a skewed image of things.
You brought up ancient societies, and it’s impossible that you have alternative sources. Are you now saying that this isn’t a good place to look for evidence?
My definition is along the lines of ‘something that raises the average (standard of living/utilon count/something like that) of a population’.
That’s far more minimal than my understanding of the term, but that works for me. And remember that I’m just trying to argue that the law on the whole serves the public good on the whole. Not that every given law serves the public good.
That’s not a big deal here; for your argument to fail to go through, we need to be able to claim that the law isn’t good evidence concerning prescriptions for the public good, because a significant proportion of it was written by short-sighted men with no idea of the long-term consequences of their decisions, and an even more significant proportion of it was written to favour special interests.
This is an empirical claim for which I would want some empirical evidence. I’m very wary of anything which looks like political cynicism.
Same for your assertion that most laws are written for the public good. Yours seems to be the more indefensible prior, since I’m sure you’ll agree that every single ancient/medieval government turned out laws that overwhelmingly favoured entrenched elites over common people. Given that, if modern governments have truly stopped doing that, that would be something extraordinary which merits an explanation.
Also, there’s the fact that short-sighted men are more numerous than far-sighted ones (or would you dispute that as well?), and that the public interest is a small target in the wide space of possible laws, (or do you dispute this, claiming that a large proportion of all possible laws are in the public interest?) you’d expect more bad laws (defined as laws which hinder the public interest, whether intentionally or as a side effect) to get passed than good ones. Then there’s the fact that representatives of special interests can contact those in power more easily than their constituents can. (Dispute that if you will, I have no interest in defending it. It’s easy enough to test: Just try contacting Joe Biden and see how that goes.)
If you don’t dispute any of this, you probably have some over-riding factors in mind that would make it less surprising that despite all this, a large fraction of laws somehow still turn out to be in the public interest.
True, though I think Tim’s formulation alone lends it some credence: the law is (on his premises) an expression of the publicly desired social arrangements, and the public can be taken to desire the optimal social arrangements, then the law is evidence (not conclusive evidence, but evidence) for what the optimal social arrangements are.
This obviously doesn’t follow for all laws, but it should follow generally. Some laws may serve private interests or incompetently written, but on the whole that can’t be true. No such polity would last a year.
I’m familiar with only a few ancient legal systems. (ETA: and there’s a strong survivorship bias for the best ones, since the really bad ones tended not to have written law codes). They’re a mixed bag. But I think favoring entrenched elites over common people probably does serve the common good pretty effectively (though so does doing the opposite, and both can be bad too). Legal systems which clearly worked against the public good on the whole, like the various oligarchies set up in Athens following the Peloponnesian war, didn’t last long. I think the only time you really get laws that work on the whole against the public good are in cases where those laws are imposed by a conquerer.
Almost all legal systems on the whole are good on the whole. Some (like ours, and I say this almost regardless of where you live) are vastly better than others. Places that are lawless are really, really horrible. I haven’t spent any time in these places (South Africa is the closest I’ve come) but I’ve spent a lot of time reading about them, especially ancient ones. We’re very lucky to have our bad legal systems.
Right, exactly. There are good questions to be raised about any given law, but legal systems on the whole are good for people. Very, very rarely do they do more harm than good. That’s one of the reasons why I think breaking the law is morally significant in every case, though not in every case morally wrong.
Of course, if you restrict your search entirely to metal-wielding literate societies seen through the eyes of their own historians (whose expectations of normalcy were completely different from ours) you might get a skewed image of things.
We seem to be operating on different definitions of ‘common good’. My definition is along the lines of ‘something that raises the average (standard of living/utilon count/something like that) of a population’. There’s no way that favouring a few people at the expense of a population greater than theirs by two orders of magnitude would do that. (Given the law of diminishing returns, at least.)
The next paragraph is a non-sequitur. I never argued for lawlessness. If I didn’t like my phone, I wouldn’t throw it away and and resolve never to use a phone again. I’d look for a better phone.
Another non-sequitur. I asked about every possible law, not every law that is passed.
You brought up ancient societies, and it’s impossible that you have alternative sources. Are you now saying that this isn’t a good place to look for evidence?
That’s far more minimal than my understanding of the term, but that works for me. And remember that I’m just trying to argue that the law on the whole serves the public good on the whole. Not that every given law serves the public good.