Identity is a matter of where you carve the world, which you should do in whatever way works best.
Isn’t this a prescription for the happy psychotic, who carves the world up in such a way that he is always maximally happy? I take it we should carve the world at the joints, whether this is good for us or not, and whether we like it or not. If you ask me, there’s no such thing as a ‘mind hack’. You cannot by any force of will decide to believe something you believe to be false and you must believe everything you believe to be true. You have no control whatsoever over what to believe. I cannot adjust my self-identity without coming to the (I think false) belief that I am not really a US citizen. You might convince me that this actually isn’t a part of my self-identity, but only by convincing me that it never was.
Could you explain in more detail why some form of law is necessary for morality (if I even have that right)?
Well, I called it a ‘significant condition on morality’ and I suggested that it may well be (I don’t know) a necessary or sufficient or necessary and sufficient condition. I doubt I can be persuasive here, since we disagree on the subject so broadly. Being good is hard. Being good means being generous with people, and this requires some modest wealth. It also means being courageous. Being just requires an association with people, and in any significant number, this requires leadership and law. Being civil, kind, etc. requires friendship, and this likewise requires associations and mutual interests, and all these practically depend upon the law. Courage is the belief that your life is worth something, such that it would be better to die than live a life of terribly low moral quality. Courage therefore means a willingness to die for the sake of the above moral goods. And perhaps most generally, being good means doing great good things with your life, and this requires powers and wealth vastly beyond the capacity of a single human to provide. Being good requires leisure, because it requires reflection and deliberation, and leisure can only be provided under the conditions of a polity, among friends, in safety, etc.
What benefit is there from spending our resources to hurt them, if it’s not the game-theoretic determent?
My point is that punishment is not for the sake of any benefit at all. It’s a manifestation of anger, which is the rational response to wrongdoing. If we are not angry with the wrongdoer, we are treating them like an animal or a small child. Anger, and so its manifestation, is a form of respect for the capacity in the criminal to do good. The last thing justice is about is using suffering and imprisonment to manipulate people.
I’ll retract that. ‘Don’t hurt people’ may not be morally intrinsic, but it’s much, much closer than punishment, which we (or at least I) now know is derived (but only in some cases) from other principles.
If you ask me, there’s no such thing as a ‘mind hack’. You cannot by any force of will decide to believe something you believe to be false and you must believe everything you believe to be true. You have no control whatsoever over what to believe. I cannot adjust my self-identity without coming to the (I think false) belief that I am not really a US citizen.
You are misunderstanding the nature of self-identity. It is not a fact about the world that you have to get right, it is a cognitive category that causes you to go insane about anything that is in it. The fact that you have a US citezenship does not mean you should put “Actions of the US” in the “I should be insane about these” category. If you truly believe that mind-hacks don’t exist, I don’t know how you intend to deal with biased cognitive machinery.
The reason we don’t talk about politics around here is precisely because people have politics as part of their identity, and are therefore incapable of reasoning about it. The more general form of “don’t think about politics” is “don’t identify with stuff”.
The fact that you have a US citezenship does not mean you should put “Actions of the US” in the “I should be insane about these” category.
I promise never to do this.
The reason we don’t talk about politics around here is precisely because people have politics as part of their identity, and are therefore incapable of reasoning about it.
From what does the ‘therefore’ follow? Is this an empirical claim?
I’ve observed this phenomenon a lot, and it explains quite a bit. If you can show me some evidence you have about this that I don’t, that would be cool.
My point is that punishment is not for the sake of any benefit at all. It’s a manifestation of anger, which is the rational response to wrongdoing. If we are not angry with the wrongdoer, we are treating them like an animal or a small child. Anger, and so its manifestation, is a form of respect for the capacity in the criminal to do good. The last thing justice is about is using suffering and imprisonment to manipulate people.
This is all wrong. The rational thing to do is whatever is best by your values, which does not necessarily mean getting mad at people and hurting them.
This was my impression of your presentation of your view too. We should both be extremely suspicious of our ability to evaluate the correctness of a view to which we object so deeply that we cannot find enough common ground to have an argument. I think I’ll tap out but I’m happy to discuss these things and so if you want to discuss these topics further, start a discussion topic or send me a message. Thanks for the discussion.
There is obviously some huge inferential distance here. I’ll try to come up with lower-level build up for my position. You should to. Agreeing to disagree is unacceptable.
Are you asserting that it’s unacceptable to agree to disagree in situations where the estimated time and effort for coming to agreement is higher than the estimated value of coming to agreement? If so, can you expand on why?
Just in general it shouldn’t happen. I think some cases aren’t worth it if it is sufficiently difficult, as you suggest. This may be one of those cases.
On the other hand, I think formulating a coherent explanation of punishment is a useful thing to do, because there are so many people who make the mistake of assuming that it’s fundamental.
Isn’t this a prescription for the happy psychotic, who carves the world up in such a way that he is always maximally happy? I take it we should carve the world at the joints, whether this is good for us or not, and whether we like it or not. If you ask me, there’s no such thing as a ‘mind hack’. You cannot by any force of will decide to believe something you believe to be false and you must believe everything you believe to be true. You have no control whatsoever over what to believe. I cannot adjust my self-identity without coming to the (I think false) belief that I am not really a US citizen. You might convince me that this actually isn’t a part of my self-identity, but only by convincing me that it never was.
Well, I called it a ‘significant condition on morality’ and I suggested that it may well be (I don’t know) a necessary or sufficient or necessary and sufficient condition. I doubt I can be persuasive here, since we disagree on the subject so broadly. Being good is hard. Being good means being generous with people, and this requires some modest wealth. It also means being courageous. Being just requires an association with people, and in any significant number, this requires leadership and law. Being civil, kind, etc. requires friendship, and this likewise requires associations and mutual interests, and all these practically depend upon the law. Courage is the belief that your life is worth something, such that it would be better to die than live a life of terribly low moral quality. Courage therefore means a willingness to die for the sake of the above moral goods. And perhaps most generally, being good means doing great good things with your life, and this requires powers and wealth vastly beyond the capacity of a single human to provide. Being good requires leisure, because it requires reflection and deliberation, and leisure can only be provided under the conditions of a polity, among friends, in safety, etc.
My point is that punishment is not for the sake of any benefit at all. It’s a manifestation of anger, which is the rational response to wrongdoing. If we are not angry with the wrongdoer, we are treating them like an animal or a small child. Anger, and so its manifestation, is a form of respect for the capacity in the criminal to do good. The last thing justice is about is using suffering and imprisonment to manipulate people.
In virtue of what is it closer?
You are misunderstanding the nature of self-identity. It is not a fact about the world that you have to get right, it is a cognitive category that causes you to go insane about anything that is in it. The fact that you have a US citezenship does not mean you should put “Actions of the US” in the “I should be insane about these” category. If you truly believe that mind-hacks don’t exist, I don’t know how you intend to deal with biased cognitive machinery.
The reason we don’t talk about politics around here is precisely because people have politics as part of their identity, and are therefore incapable of reasoning about it. The more general form of “don’t think about politics” is “don’t identify with stuff”.
I promise never to do this.
From what does the ‘therefore’ follow? Is this an empirical claim?
Yes. The hidden empirical premise is that people can’t think straight about things they identify with. They get defensive and go into politics-mode.
See paul graham’s take.
I’ve observed this phenomenon a lot, and it explains quite a bit. If you can show me some evidence you have about this that I don’t, that would be cool.
This is all wrong. The rational thing to do is whatever is best by your values, which does not necessarily mean getting mad at people and hurting them.
This is so wrong I don’t know how to tackle it.
This was my impression of your presentation of your view too. We should both be extremely suspicious of our ability to evaluate the correctness of a view to which we object so deeply that we cannot find enough common ground to have an argument. I think I’ll tap out but I’m happy to discuss these things and so if you want to discuss these topics further, start a discussion topic or send me a message. Thanks for the discussion.
There is obviously some huge inferential distance here. I’ll try to come up with lower-level build up for my position. You should to. Agreeing to disagree is unacceptable.
Anyways, it will be a while.
Are you asserting that it’s unacceptable to agree to disagree in situations where the estimated time and effort for coming to agreement is higher than the estimated value of coming to agreement? If so, can you expand on why?
Just in general it shouldn’t happen. I think some cases aren’t worth it if it is sufficiently difficult, as you suggest. This may be one of those cases.
On the other hand, I think formulating a coherent explanation of punishment is a useful thing to do, because there are so many people who make the mistake of assuming that it’s fundamental.
I suppose. Mostly I think those people should read a good book on animal training.
Then again, I think everyone should read a good book on animal training.
Everything you said here points to law being instrumental, so I’ll assume that you agree.