Argument in general, not just the simply fallacious ones, are usually more about rationalizing beliefs people already hold than about trying to find better beliefs. As far as I have seen, there is no possible way to convince most people of anything; the most you can do is to show those who already want to learn or improve their beliefs how to go about it. Over a longer time you might be able to get a larger number to at least start questioning their beliefs, but I wouldn’t bet on it (unless we can get “a longer time” up to hundreds of years).
Yep. Approximately no-one has ever taken advice. Ever. Even when they ask for it, they use it to confirm whatever course of action they had already decided on.
(If they’re actually bugging you with problems they won’t act to fix, a useful method is to strip politeness and be blunt: give them a short list of actions before they next ask you about it and demand progress on these before you’ll talk about it again. Then they’ll either do something or stop asking. Usually the latter. Either is a win.)
You might think from the amount of advice given out that it was going somewhere, but there’s a lack of evidence to this effect.
If you need to change someone else’s mind, you need to actually sell the idea. And this always has to be done with a pull, not a push—attract them to your idea. This is not quick, but push just doesn’t convince.
(I am awful at selling things for money, but try to sell people on ideas more or less every second I’m writing or talking. How am I doing on this one?)
I didn’t say anything about “advice”. I may usually be considered excessively cynical, but I don’t go that far—many people will take advice that they asked for into consideration. They may not actually follow the advice, but they often modify their own plans in consideration of it.
Yep. Approximately no-one has ever taken advice. Ever. Even when they ask for it, they use it to confirm whatever course of action they had already decided on.
Well said! (Not exactly literally true obviously but the sentiment is spot on.)
If you need to change someone else’s mind, you need to actually sell the idea. And this always has to be done with a pull, not a push—attract them to your idea. This is not quick, but push just doesn’t convince.
The problem, of course, is that this generally requires use of the “Dark Arts,” or the power of irrational persuasion. Though it is theoretically possible to convince someone by changing the way their entire epistemology works, it’s much easier to use a technically incorrect but emotionally compelling argument. This, of course, is why clarity and conciseness are so important when explaining rationality. But you obviously know that already :)
It is easy to become drunk with the wizardly power of shaping perceptions—the Steve Jobs reality distortion field superpower—and get really heavily into argument by sounding good. (Music journalism is a particular hazard for this, and where I picked it up.) So keep an eye on your moral compass at every step ;-)
Argument in general, not just the simply fallacious ones, are usually more about rationalizing beliefs people already hold than about trying to find better beliefs. As far as I have seen, there is no possible way to convince most people of anything; the most you can do is to show those who already want to learn or improve their beliefs how to go about it. Over a longer time you might be able to get a larger number to at least start questioning their beliefs, but I wouldn’t bet on it (unless we can get “a longer time” up to hundreds of years).
Yep. Approximately no-one has ever taken advice. Ever. Even when they ask for it, they use it to confirm whatever course of action they had already decided on.
(If they’re actually bugging you with problems they won’t act to fix, a useful method is to strip politeness and be blunt: give them a short list of actions before they next ask you about it and demand progress on these before you’ll talk about it again. Then they’ll either do something or stop asking. Usually the latter. Either is a win.)
You might think from the amount of advice given out that it was going somewhere, but there’s a lack of evidence to this effect.
If you need to change someone else’s mind, you need to actually sell the idea. And this always has to be done with a pull, not a push—attract them to your idea. This is not quick, but push just doesn’t convince.
Note that you won’t find their true rejection by bluntly asking, as they will detect “sales!” and go defensive.
(I am awful at selling things for money, but try to sell people on ideas more or less every second I’m writing or talking. How am I doing on this one?)
I didn’t say anything about “advice”. I may usually be considered excessively cynical, but I don’t go that far—many people will take advice that they asked for into consideration. They may not actually follow the advice, but they often modify their own plans in consideration of it.
Well said! (Not exactly literally true obviously but the sentiment is spot on.)
The problem, of course, is that this generally requires use of the “Dark Arts,” or the power of irrational persuasion. Though it is theoretically possible to convince someone by changing the way their entire epistemology works, it’s much easier to use a technically incorrect but emotionally compelling argument. This, of course, is why clarity and conciseness are so important when explaining rationality. But you obviously know that already :)
Oh, absolutely. But there are lots of white-hat ways to sell ideas.
It is easy to become drunk with the wizardly power of shaping perceptions—the Steve Jobs reality distortion field superpower—and get really heavily into argument by sounding good. (Music journalism is a particular hazard for this, and where I picked it up.) So keep an eye on your moral compass at every step ;-)