I think this ad makes LW and EA look cultish, because this ad sounds like hero worship and sexual innuendo. I was especially troubled to see this link on the EA Facebook page, where many potential/new EAs who don’t know who Bostrom is, have lower weirdness tolerance, and have still-forming understanding of effective altruism, could see it.
Conscientious and discreet… Able to keep flexible hours (some days a lot of work, others not much)...Has a good personality ‘fit’ with Bostrom… Willing to do some tasks that are not high-status… Willing to help Bostrom with both his professional and personal life (to free up his attention)...
I showed this to a few smart young people, the type EAs want to reach out to, and they said it sounded “sketchy” “unprofessional” and “kind of like prostitution.” Maybe it’s totally fine and even attractive for LW, but I think EA leaders trying to recruit really need to be more thoughtful about their language. I think a different description should have been written up for that forum.
At the very least, it’s very unconventional. Ads for personal assistants usually mention specific duties like “answering emails” and “preparing food,” not just all-purpose service, so that people know what they are getting into.
tl:dr This ad sounds sketchy to me, and I really wish it wasn’t linked on the EA Facebook group, where it can scare off new/potential EAs
Thank you for voicing your worries. It’s important we discuss this aspect as well, and I hadn’t taken that into account when I posted the comment about “sidekicks”.
The “sexual innuendo” part was surprising to me—I (female, 24y) didn’t get that impression from reading the post and neither did any of the smart, young people I showed it to. Maybe we were talking with people in different social circles (my friends are already EAs for the most part). You’re right that phrasing it as “sidekick” makes it look more cultish. I’m not sure what the tradeoff is between making a joke/attracting people for whom this sounds appealing and not appearing sketchy/culty.
I would assume that it’s phrased in a very general way because it’s not actually determined yet. It depends on what the candidate is able to do well. Nonetheless, more examples could have been given. Would you have preferred that?
Do you have suggestions to rephrase the quoted parts? I have trouble coming up with something more professional that says the same thing myself.
This is not an opportunity to exercise creativity, find the most boring stodgy company’s ad for a secretary, and copy it. People will be able to read between the lines on everything else (or you can use community slang internally to explain, just not externally).
(I agree with the grandparent, part of “growing up” is adopting boring stodgy professional norms for instrumental rationality reasons).
I don’t think it’s obvious that would be the best approach.
This forum is as internal as it gets without asking potential candidates via email or in person.
Both approaches are valid, but they optimize to attract different people.
The gist that I get from this job ad is that they are looking for someone who is a good assistant while being passionate about effective altruism, willing to help indirectly rather than promote their own ego and eager to find creative ways to improve themselves and Bostrom’s workflow. My guess is that they would prefer someone less experienced to a person for whom this is just another assistant job, provided that the less experienced person views the role as a challenge to grow into.
If the thing that they are optimizing for is work experience/existing skills, I agree that it would be better to match the writing style to standardized assistant job ads. In that case, they might as well post it on the matching sites.
Best would be obviously to have someone who fills all the criteria perfectly, but it’s going to be hard to come by a person with extensive experience who does not already have a better project to work on or is willing to accept what I’m sure will be a very low salary.
The description as is was much more interesting to me than a standard job ad would have been. I don’t think I would have applied if it had read like the standard job ad. That said, I am not trying to argue the description is perfect, just that I prefer the type of description.
tl;dr: If you want excited people to apply, don’t post a boring job ad.
if the ideas of innuendo could come from anywhere its where it says “conscientious and discreet” since guys are always saying they’re discreet or making that a condition in their ads when they are seeking other guys to hook up with.
Note it was also the most popular post on the Facebook group (as measured by likes) in almost two weeks, so clearly some other members thought this was a sensible proposal.
I can see how it could come across as ‘hero worship’, except that Bostrom is indeed a widely-recognised world-leading academic at the highest ranked philosophy department in the world. There are sound reasons to be respectful of his work.
“sexual innuendo”
I can assure you the intended level of sexual innuendo in this ad is less than zero.
In case I wasn’t clear, I see nothing wrong with seeking a personal assistant for Bostrom amongst EAs and LessWrongers. Obviously, many people in those groups might be very interested in the job. I’m sure it will be an interesting opportunity for whoever gets it. My objection was to the tone. I’m glad if people didn’t find it as alarming as I did, but I was aware of some additional controversy, expressed both publicly in the comments and privately. And of course, there is no downvote on Facebook.
I can see how it could come across as ‘hero worship’, except that Bostrom is indeed a widely-recognised world-leading academic at the highest ranked philosophy department in the world. There are sound reasons to be respectful of his work.
Yes, by all means, be respectful of Bostrom’s work! Luckily, there’s a lot of room between “worshipful” and “respectful” to aim at. Lots of hero worship, perhaps even most of it, is directed at people who are legitimately awesome (as I personally believe Bostrom is)! And since LW has alreadybeenaccusedof excessive hero worship, with varying degrees of thoughtfulness, to an extent that has turned people off the site, I think it’s worth considering extolling the virtues of those we admire in a more conventional manner, especially in large public forums.
I completely believe that no innuendo was intended. That’s why I thought it would be helpful to let you know that at least to some people, it came off that way.
I think this ad makes LW and EA look cultish, because this ad sounds like hero worship and sexual innuendo. I was especially troubled to see this link on the EA Facebook page, where many potential/new EAs who don’t know who Bostrom is, have lower weirdness tolerance, and have still-forming understanding of effective altruism, could see it.
I showed this to a few smart young people, the type EAs want to reach out to, and they said it sounded “sketchy” “unprofessional” and “kind of like prostitution.” Maybe it’s totally fine and even attractive for LW, but I think EA leaders trying to recruit really need to be more thoughtful about their language. I think a different description should have been written up for that forum.
At the very least, it’s very unconventional. Ads for personal assistants usually mention specific duties like “answering emails” and “preparing food,” not just all-purpose service, so that people know what they are getting into.
tl:dr This ad sounds sketchy to me, and I really wish it wasn’t linked on the EA Facebook group, where it can scare off new/potential EAs
Thank you for voicing your worries. It’s important we discuss this aspect as well, and I hadn’t taken that into account when I posted the comment about “sidekicks”.
The “sexual innuendo” part was surprising to me—I (female, 24y) didn’t get that impression from reading the post and neither did any of the smart, young people I showed it to. Maybe we were talking with people in different social circles (my friends are already EAs for the most part). You’re right that phrasing it as “sidekick” makes it look more cultish. I’m not sure what the tradeoff is between making a joke/attracting people for whom this sounds appealing and not appearing sketchy/culty.
I would assume that it’s phrased in a very general way because it’s not actually determined yet. It depends on what the candidate is able to do well. Nonetheless, more examples could have been given. Would you have preferred that?
Do you have suggestions to rephrase the quoted parts? I have trouble coming up with something more professional that says the same thing myself.
This is not an opportunity to exercise creativity, find the most boring stodgy company’s ad for a secretary, and copy it. People will be able to read between the lines on everything else (or you can use community slang internally to explain, just not externally).
(I agree with the grandparent, part of “growing up” is adopting boring stodgy professional norms for instrumental rationality reasons).
I don’t think it’s obvious that would be the best approach.
This forum is as internal as it gets without asking potential candidates via email or in person.
Both approaches are valid, but they optimize to attract different people. The gist that I get from this job ad is that they are looking for someone who is a good assistant while being passionate about effective altruism, willing to help indirectly rather than promote their own ego and eager to find creative ways to improve themselves and Bostrom’s workflow. My guess is that they would prefer someone less experienced to a person for whom this is just another assistant job, provided that the less experienced person views the role as a challenge to grow into. If the thing that they are optimizing for is work experience/existing skills, I agree that it would be better to match the writing style to standardized assistant job ads. In that case, they might as well post it on the matching sites. Best would be obviously to have someone who fills all the criteria perfectly, but it’s going to be hard to come by a person with extensive experience who does not already have a better project to work on or is willing to accept what I’m sure will be a very low salary.
The description as is was much more interesting to me than a standard job ad would have been. I don’t think I would have applied if it had read like the standard job ad. That said, I am not trying to argue the description is perfect, just that I prefer the type of description.
tl;dr: If you want excited people to apply, don’t post a boring job ad.
Facebook is not internal. Also LW is world-readable.
I think it’s perfectly fine not to care about the cultishness impression, by the way, just as long as you realize that is what you are doing.
Only provided they are valid instrumental reasons. There are enough boring stodgy professional norms which are there for no good reason at all.
if the ideas of innuendo could come from anywhere its where it says “conscientious and discreet” since guys are always saying they’re discreet or making that a condition in their ads when they are seeking other guys to hook up with.
Thanks for the feedback.
Note it was also the most popular post on the Facebook group (as measured by likes) in almost two weeks, so clearly some other members thought this was a sensible proposal.
I can see how it could come across as ‘hero worship’, except that Bostrom is indeed a widely-recognised world-leading academic at the highest ranked philosophy department in the world. There are sound reasons to be respectful of his work.
“sexual innuendo”
I can assure you the intended level of sexual innuendo in this ad is less than zero.
In case I wasn’t clear, I see nothing wrong with seeking a personal assistant for Bostrom amongst EAs and LessWrongers. Obviously, many people in those groups might be very interested in the job. I’m sure it will be an interesting opportunity for whoever gets it. My objection was to the tone. I’m glad if people didn’t find it as alarming as I did, but I was aware of some additional controversy, expressed both publicly in the comments and privately. And of course, there is no downvote on Facebook.
Yes, by all means, be respectful of Bostrom’s work! Luckily, there’s a lot of room between “worshipful” and “respectful” to aim at. Lots of hero worship, perhaps even most of it, is directed at people who are legitimately awesome (as I personally believe Bostrom is)! And since LW has already been accused of excessive hero worship, with varying degrees of thoughtfulness, to an extent that has turned people off the site, I think it’s worth considering extolling the virtues of those we admire in a more conventional manner, especially in large public forums.
I completely believe that no innuendo was intended. That’s why I thought it would be helpful to let you know that at least to some people, it came off that way.