This is a black box. Explain what [first order and higher order] mean and how you generate the connection between the two.
Usual meaning in this type of disucssion.
You claim that a rational-should exists. Prove it.
If I can prove anything to you, you are already running on rational_should.
Using objective principles as a tool to evaluate tradeoffs between subjective values is not the same as using objective principles to produce moral truths.
Why not?
That’s not my definition of morality, it’s the conclusion I end up with.
That doens’t help. It;s not morality whether it’s assumed or concluded.
The idea that all principles you act upon must be [is weird]
It’s bad because individuals are different and should act differently.
Individuals are different and would act differntly. You are arguing as though people should never
do anythng unless it is morally obligated, as though moral rules are all encompassing. I never
said that. Morality does not need to detemine evey action any more than civil law does.
The principle I defend is a universalizable one, that individuals should do what they want.
That isn’t universalisable because you don;t want to be murdered.
The correct form is “individuals should do what they want unless it harms another”.
The difference between mine and yours is that mine is broad and all people are happy when its applied to their case,
We don’t have it.
if people wanted your principle, they would abolish all laws.
but yours is narrow and exclusive and egocentric
!!!
If I valued rationality, why would that result in specific moral decrees?
Look at examples of people arguing about morality.
ETA: Better restrict that to liberals.
There’s plenty about, even on this site.
Value held by a subject doesn’t imply selfish value, but it does imply that the values of others are only relevant to my morality insofar as I empathize with those others.
Nope. Rationality too.
“Objectivity” in ethics is achieved by abandoning individual values and beliefs
Of course not. It is a perfectly acceptable principle that people should be allowed to realise
their values so long as they do not harm others. Where do you ge these ideas?
and trying to produce statements which would be valued and believed by everyone.
Just everyone rational. The police are there for a reason
That’s stupid because we can never escape the locus of the self and because morality emerges from internal processes
Yet again: we can internally value what is objective and impartial. “In me” doesn’t imply “for me”.
and neglecting those internal processes means that there is zero foundation for any sort of morality.
“Neglect” is your straw man.
I’m saying that morality is only accessible internally, and that the things which produce morality are internal subjective beliefs.
Yet again: “In me” doesn’t imply “for me”.
If you continue to disagree, I suggest we start over. Let me know and I’ll post an argument that I used last year in debate. I feel like starting over would clarify things a lot because we’re getting muddled down in a line-by-line back-and-forth hyperspecific conversation here.
Usual meaning in this type of disucssion.
If I can prove anything to you, you are already running on rational_should.
Why not?
That doens’t help. It;s not morality whether it’s assumed or concluded.
Individuals are different and would act differntly. You are arguing as though people should never do anythng unless it is morally obligated, as though moral rules are all encompassing. I never said that. Morality does not need to detemine evey action any more than civil law does.
That isn’t universalisable because you don;t want to be murdered. The correct form is “individuals should do what they want unless it harms another”.
We don’t have it. if people wanted your principle, they would abolish all laws.
!!!
Look at examples of people arguing about morality.
ETA: Better restrict that to liberals.
There’s plenty about, even on this site.
Nope. Rationality too.
Of course not. It is a perfectly acceptable principle that people should be allowed to realise their values so long as they do not harm others. Where do you ge these ideas?
Just everyone rational. The police are there for a reason
Yet again: we can internally value what is objective and impartial. “In me” doesn’t imply “for me”.
“Neglect” is your straw man.
Yet again: “In me” doesn’t imply “for me”.
If you like.
I don’t want to spend any more time on this. I’m done.