Just read through the comments. Ouch. As Nesov said in the absolute denial macro discussion, “this is turning into a Let’s Spout Nonsense!!! thread”, but at least that one didn’t make me want to unsee. Cheers to Manfred.
I’ve “deleted” the post, given your criticism, and that (judging from the number of upvotes on Manfred’s comment at this point) a large number of readers apparently consider the post and/or followup comments to be ridiculous. I’m not really sure why though. It doesn’t seem obviously crazy to provide information about the rationality benefits of some hobbies that would-be rationalist can take into account, along with other costs and benefits, while choosing hobbies.
Perhaps the title, “Rationalist Hobbies”, gives the impression that I and others are recommending hobbies that every rationalist should have? If so, maybe I should have just renamed the post to “Rationality Benefits of Various Hobbies”?
It doesn’t seem obviously crazy to provide information about the rationality benefits of some hobbies that would-be rationalist can take into account, along with other costs and benefits, while choosing hobbies.
I agree with your statement. The reasons for my criticism: a) it seems hard to determine objectively how much a given hobby helps your rationality, b) almost any hobby can be presented as “helping rationality” given enough ingenuity, c) some people will want to present their own hobbies this way. I’m not sure we can get much value from such discussions until we have some solution for at least one of these points.
If an idea isn’t obviously crazy, then the fact that it has problems seems to call for a discussion into the nature of the problems and possible solutions, instead of ridicule. In this case, b) and c) both seem surmountable. For b, many people are apparently able to tell when it is a “stretch” that some hobby offers rationality benefits, and appropriately discount such claims. For c, perhaps a warning to avoid rationalizing would be sufficient.
But your original post listed video games as a rationalist hobby. That certainly felt like a “stretch” to me, and to many other commenters too, I think. (Crypto, on the other hand, sounds like a very good recommendation.)
The title said “rationalist hobbies” (which I now think was a big mistake) but the post explained that these are hobbies that teach rationality lessons. I rarely play video games anymore, but I still think the lesson that hobby taught was a very valuable one that I may not have gotten from any other source. Most of us here probably do not need that specific lesson at this point, but I thought I’d include it to help explain how some of us got to where we are today.
I’ve “deleted” the post given your criticism, and...the number of upvotes on Manfred’s comment at this point...
That was unnecessary, given the post’s current score of +7. If all those people who upvoted Manfred really disapproved of the post (as opposed to lauding a display of wit), they could have voted it down to −28.
I don’t have any problem with the post itself, its title, or most comments; and in fact I don’t think your proposed title change would have “helped” one bit with folks like Manfred or cousin_it, since the idea of exploiting hobbies for their rationality benefits seems to be precisely what they find ridiculous.
Just read through the comments. Ouch. As Nesov said in the absolute denial macro discussion, “this is turning into a Let’s Spout Nonsense!!! thread”, but at least that one didn’t make me want to unsee. Cheers to Manfred.
I’ve “deleted” the post, given your criticism, and that (judging from the number of upvotes on Manfred’s comment at this point) a large number of readers apparently consider the post and/or followup comments to be ridiculous. I’m not really sure why though. It doesn’t seem obviously crazy to provide information about the rationality benefits of some hobbies that would-be rationalist can take into account, along with other costs and benefits, while choosing hobbies.
Perhaps the title, “Rationalist Hobbies”, gives the impression that I and others are recommending hobbies that every rationalist should have? If so, maybe I should have just renamed the post to “Rationality Benefits of Various Hobbies”?
I agree with your statement. The reasons for my criticism: a) it seems hard to determine objectively how much a given hobby helps your rationality, b) almost any hobby can be presented as “helping rationality” given enough ingenuity, c) some people will want to present their own hobbies this way. I’m not sure we can get much value from such discussions until we have some solution for at least one of these points.
If an idea isn’t obviously crazy, then the fact that it has problems seems to call for a discussion into the nature of the problems and possible solutions, instead of ridicule. In this case, b) and c) both seem surmountable. For b, many people are apparently able to tell when it is a “stretch” that some hobby offers rationality benefits, and appropriately discount such claims. For c, perhaps a warning to avoid rationalizing would be sufficient.
Overall you’re right. I apologize.
But your original post listed video games as a rationalist hobby. That certainly felt like a “stretch” to me, and to many other commenters too, I think. (Crypto, on the other hand, sounds like a very good recommendation.)
The title said “rationalist hobbies” (which I now think was a big mistake) but the post explained that these are hobbies that teach rationality lessons. I rarely play video games anymore, but I still think the lesson that hobby taught was a very valuable one that I may not have gotten from any other source. Most of us here probably do not need that specific lesson at this point, but I thought I’d include it to help explain how some of us got to where we are today.
That was unnecessary, given the post’s current score of +7. If all those people who upvoted Manfred really disapproved of the post (as opposed to lauding a display of wit), they could have voted it down to −28.
I don’t have any problem with the post itself, its title, or most comments; and in fact I don’t think your proposed title change would have “helped” one bit with folks like Manfred or cousin_it, since the idea of exploiting hobbies for their rationality benefits seems to be precisely what they find ridiculous.