“Gay people shouldn’t marry because it will undermine the very fabric of civilization” “Women shouldn’t vote, because they don’t understand male concepts like War and Empire” “Everyone knows Irish people get drunk on St. Patrick’s day!”
Is your claim that these statements are obviously false or that they’re so offensive that they shouldn’t be stated even if they’re true?
I ADBOC with the last of them (except the “everyone knows” part—my mother didn’t know what the significance of St. Paddy’s was until I told her a few years ago).
BTW, this is something I’ve recently noticed—the vast majority of statements I’m offended by is of the form “All [people from some group that comprises a sizeable fraction of the human population, and doesn’t include the speaker] are [something non-tautological and unflattering].” (I am more offended if the group happens to include me, but not very much.) But remove the universal quantifier and, no matter how large the group is and how unflattering the thing is, the statement will lose almost all of its offensiveness in my eyes.
Internally I am generally the same, but I’ve come to realize that a rather sizable portion of the population has trouble distinguishing “all X are Y” and “some X are Y”, both in speaking and in listening. So if someone says “man, women can be so stupid”, I know that might well reflect the internal thought of “all women are idiots”. And equally, someone saying “all women are idiots” might just be upset because his girlfriend broke up with him for some trivial reason.
but I’ve come to realize that a rather sizable portion of the population has trouble distinguishing “all X are Y” and “some X are Y”, both in speaking and in listening.
And the belief in question acts more light “some/most X are Y” then “all X are Y”, i.e., the belief mostly get’s applied to X’s the person doesn’t know, when it makes sense to use the prior for X’s.
Yes, people who say “all X are Y” usually do know at least one person who happens to be an X and whom they don’t actually alieve is Y—but I think that in certain cases what’s going on is that they don’t actually alieve that person is an X, i.e. they’re internally committing a no true Scotsman. Now, I can’t remember anyone ever explicitly saying “All X are Y [they notice that I’m looking at them in an offended way] -- well, you’re not, but you’re not a ‘real’ X so you don’t count” (and if they did, I’d be tremendously offended), but I have heard things that sound very much like a self-censored version of that.
The reasoning you described reaches valid (object level) conclusions in the different cases under consideration, but you still prefer to analyze it as full of fallacies for some reason.
Huh, no. If an argument has premises “all X are Y” and “John is an X” and conclusion “John is not Y”, it is broken. Whether the conclusion happens to be true because one of the premises is false is irrelevant.
The argument’s stated premises were “X are Y”, you decided to interpret the ambiguous statement as “all X are Y” and then complain that it makes the argument formally false.
[...] but I have heard things that sound very much like a self-censored version of that.
What exactly do you count as a self-censored version of that? Pointing out that you’re an exceptional X, that you have characteristic Z, which correlates negatively with Y, or some such thing? If so, the answer is: well, of course, what do you expect?
If people make a generic generalization along the lines of “(all) X are Y”, then naturally, you have to be an exceptional X in order to be Y. One could say that it’s enough that you are Y, because then you are an exceptional X in virtue of that. But that’s not how generic generalizations work. People make such generalization usually not purely on the basis of statistical data, but because in their model, something about X causes Y (or they have a common cause). So if you’re X, but not Y, chances are you have additional characteristic Z, which is rare among Xs, and which counteracts X’s influence on Y.
It’s just like saying “dogs have four legs—well, not Fido, obviously, but he’s had an accident and one of his legs had to be amputated”. This kind of thing might sound a bit like a self-censored version of “but Fido isn’t a true dog”, but what it really says is “but Fido isn’t an ordinary dog”, which is entirely correct!
Maybe you’re aware of all this anyway, but I just thought it’d be worth pointing out.
In the context of human groups and human sub-groups, I’m not sure “ordinary” member of the group is used differently than “true” member of the group. Witness those who claim the community organizer is not “really” black because he did not live the ordinary life experiences of a black male child (i.e. he didn’t live in a poverty stricken inner city while growing up).
I’m inclined to argue, as some linguists would, that tabooing “ordinary” is impossible in this context, because people are intuitive essentialists, and that generic statements make reference to such postulated essences, which define what makes for an “ordinary” X. (Hence a lot of Aristotelian nonsense.)
This does, indeed, fit very well with your observation—with which I agree—that sometimes, the borderline between “ordinary” and “true/real” becomes blurred. However, I think one should still be wary of suspecting mentions of “extraordinary” of being censored no-true-Scotsman-arguments without further evidence.
Is your claim that these statements are obviously false or that they’re so offensive that they shouldn’t be stated even if they’re true?
I ADBOC with the last of them (except the “everyone knows” part—my mother didn’t know what the significance of St. Paddy’s was until I told her a few years ago).
The last one should be read as “ALL” Irish people, my bad :)
BTW, this is something I’ve recently noticed—the vast majority of statements I’m offended by is of the form “All [people from some group that comprises a sizeable fraction of the human population, and doesn’t include the speaker] are [something non-tautological and unflattering].” (I am more offended if the group happens to include me, but not very much.) But remove the universal quantifier and, no matter how large the group is and how unflattering the thing is, the statement will lose almost all of its offensiveness in my eyes.
Internally I am generally the same, but I’ve come to realize that a rather sizable portion of the population has trouble distinguishing “all X are Y” and “some X are Y”, both in speaking and in listening. So if someone says “man, women can be so stupid”, I know that might well reflect the internal thought of “all women are idiots”. And equally, someone saying “all women are idiots” might just be upset because his girlfriend broke up with him for some trivial reason.
And the belief in question acts more light “some/most X are Y” then “all X are Y”, i.e., the belief mostly get’s applied to X’s the person doesn’t know, when it makes sense to use the prior for X’s.
Yes, people who say “all X are Y” usually do know at least one person who happens to be an X and whom they don’t actually alieve is Y—but I think that in certain cases what’s going on is that they don’t actually alieve that person is an X, i.e. they’re internally committing a no true Scotsman. Now, I can’t remember anyone ever explicitly saying “All X are Y [they notice that I’m looking at them in an offended way] -- well, you’re not, but you’re not a ‘real’ X so you don’t count” (and if they did, I’d be tremendously offended), but I have heard things that sound very much like a self-censored version of that.
I generally avoid criticizing reasoning that reliably reaches correct conclusions.
I’m not sure what the relevance of that to my comment is.
The reasoning you described reaches valid (object level) conclusions in the different cases under consideration, but you still prefer to analyze it as full of fallacies for some reason.
Huh, no. If an argument has premises “all X are Y” and “John is an X” and conclusion “John is not Y”, it is broken. Whether the conclusion happens to be true because one of the premises is false is irrelevant.
The argument’s stated premises were “X are Y”, you decided to interpret the ambiguous statement as “all X are Y” and then complain that it makes the argument formally false.
Re-read the fifth word of this comment. (Or am I missing something?)
You may want to (re)read this comment to see/remember how this discussion started.
What exactly do you count as a self-censored version of that? Pointing out that you’re an exceptional X, that you have characteristic Z, which correlates negatively with Y, or some such thing? If so, the answer is: well, of course, what do you expect?
If people make a generic generalization along the lines of “(all) X are Y”, then naturally, you have to be an exceptional X in order to be Y. One could say that it’s enough that you are Y, because then you are an exceptional X in virtue of that. But that’s not how generic generalizations work. People make such generalization usually not purely on the basis of statistical data, but because in their model, something about X causes Y (or they have a common cause). So if you’re X, but not Y, chances are you have additional characteristic Z, which is rare among Xs, and which counteracts X’s influence on Y.
It’s just like saying “dogs have four legs—well, not Fido, obviously, but he’s had an accident and one of his legs had to be amputated”. This kind of thing might sound a bit like a self-censored version of “but Fido isn’t a true dog”, but what it really says is “but Fido isn’t an ordinary dog”, which is entirely correct!
Maybe you’re aware of all this anyway, but I just thought it’d be worth pointing out.
Perhaps taboo “ordinary” and “true”?
In the context of human groups and human sub-groups, I’m not sure “ordinary” member of the group is used differently than “true” member of the group. Witness those who claim the community organizer is not “really” black because he did not live the ordinary life experiences of a black male child (i.e. he didn’t live in a poverty stricken inner city while growing up).
I’m inclined to argue, as some linguists would, that tabooing “ordinary” is impossible in this context, because people are intuitive essentialists, and that generic statements make reference to such postulated essences, which define what makes for an “ordinary” X. (Hence a lot of Aristotelian nonsense.)
This does, indeed, fit very well with your observation—with which I agree—that sometimes, the borderline between “ordinary” and “true/real” becomes blurred. However, I think one should still be wary of suspecting mentions of “extraordinary” of being censored no-true-Scotsman-arguments without further evidence.
Obviously false. I just stated them, so they’re not de-facto offensive; they’re offensive when you assert such an obvious falsehood as TRUE.
Can I here the evidence that caused you to assign such low probability to them.