However, with that said, I don’t think you understand just how powerful the Unbreakable Vow is. There is a reason why EY nefed it so much in HPMOR, and if you can simply get around that with a simple Imperios curse… Maybe in this alternate world the Imperius curse would still be illegal, but I doubt it. Because the people who use the Imperius curse have the full power of the Unbreakable Vow at their backs, and they would quickly have the laws changed to their whims.
I think you’re overestimating how powerful the Unbreakable Vow is, on a social level. People who use the Imperius Curse do not automatically cooperate with each other as fellow imperiusers. They don’t form a unified pro-Imperius voting bloc. Any individual who tries to bind people in this way is a social threat to anyone who doesn’t trust them absolutely. Each person who behaves in such a way is a potential candidate trying to take over society, so anyone who tries it is practically inviting absolute war against themselves.
They don’t form a unified pro-Imperius voting bloc. Any individual who tries to bind people in this way is a social threat to anyone who doesn’t trust them absolutely.
Aha! I think I spot the misunderstanding: In this scenario, no one is trying to “bind people in this way”. I am not positing that you do use the Imperius curse to make other people make an Unbreakable Vow to you, but rather I am positing that pairs of people both agree to make an Unbreakable Vow between the pair of them (with the Imperius curse used on the binder), so that they can reap the benefits of mutual cooperation.
As such, it is absurd to say they wouldn’t form a unified voting block. Their power comes from the fact that they are magically unified, so that they can trust one another absolutely.
In that case, they might be able to form a unified voting bloc, but even so they’re going to appear as an active threat to everyone else. Things like this are among the reasons why the Imperius curse is as forbidden as it is. If the people attempting this were caught, it wouldn’t matter if they were all voting in favor of its legality, any more than we would let convicted murdering congressmen try to pass a bill legalizing murder. It’s not something that the rest of society is likely to be amenable to if a bunch of lawmakers stand up for it, the fact that they would vote for it at all would be highly suspicious and threatening to their social standings.
They allowed lawmakers to legalize the Unforgivables during Voldemort’s uprising; I have a hard time believing a great many people would object to a bill allowing a service where Aurors Imperius Azkaban inmates to bind vows.
The larger point being, any society could find or make an outgroup sufficiently unsympathetic to allow regulated use of the Imperius for the public good.
The use of the unforgivable curses was only legalized for a fairly brief period, I doubt they explored the space of possible uses very thoroughly And for all we know, they did imperius people to use as binders, but stopped after the war ended and the use of unforgivable curses became illegal again.
Also, just because a society could do that, doesn’t mean they would. You might say that any society could find or make an outgroup sufficiently unsympathetic that they would be willing to impose slavery on them, and slavery is likely to be a public good if you discount the values of the enslaved, but that doesn’t mean that all societies will gravitate to slavery.
This might be, and they might in fact succeed or they might fail. It seems the kind of thing someone could write a very interesting story about, and if that story is ever written, I would like to read it. But I find it unlikely in a world like this that there even would be a government with laws against this sort of thing in the first place. The propose of government is to provide a framework in which people can be sure of their fellows Cooperating in prisoner’s dilemma type scenarios, and while it works most of the time, a network of Unbreakable Vows would work a lot better then any form of government. As such, it is probable that in this world, rather then there being a system of laws in the first place, it would be a system of Unbreakable Vows.
A world like that would be very different then the one described in canon Harry Potter or in HPMOR, and that is why EY nerfed it. In the end, I think it boils down to this: You have to think not in the form of some group trying to take over with their new but ethically dubious system, but rather think in the form of their existing form the beginning a much better system then the one we know, and so everyone uses that one instead, despite the ethical problems. (Human nature being what it is, people can accept even large amount of ethical wrongness if they benefit enough from it. Just look at the example of slavery in the real world.)
What do you mean by “this sort of thing?” There’s no implication that Unbreakable Vows are illegal, although coercing a third party into being a binder for them is, for understandable reasons.
How do you envision a network of Unbreakable Vows coming into existence and being implemented in practice? Given a sufficiently sophisticated and insightful Vow drafting system, I can imagine that society would be better off under such a system than under traditional government, but society doesn’t simply jump to optimums by default.
I meant using the Imperius for the purpose of forcing people be the binder to your Unbreakable Vows. More precisely, I would envision a society with some form of slavery, in which the slaves were made to serve as binder to the Unbreakable Vows of their masters.
As to how I envision this system coming into existence, I imagine that when the first hunter-gatherers were settling down and moving over to farming, rather then falling into the system which they fell into in our world (that is to say governments, which do work, although inefficiently), they used the much better alternative of networks of Unbreakable Vows.
(In fact, in any universe were there is such a powerful and easy to implement commitment mechanism I would expect it to be used instead of government, as it performs all the tasks governments to do, but better. Again, there is a reason why EY nerfed it so hard. Using a system of Unbreakable Vows is not just an optimum, it is miles and miles better then any possible other system at solving coordination problems, as it is quite literally perfect at solving those problems.)
Even if it is not obvious to everyone that this system is better then normal governance, at least one group/nation/city state of these farmers would use it, and they would out compete everyone else, seeing as they have this amazing magical power to avoid coordination problems, which is a very, very big deal. (As we discussed earlier.)
(Note that this is assuming wizards are around at this point in history, and that they settle down as farmers with everyone else. I think this is a pretty reasonable assumption, but even if it is not true, these same events will happen sooner or later when wizards do eventually come along and settle down.)
Well, it’s worth keeping in mind that the Unbreakable Vow was probably not discovered until well after government had been invented; it wasn’t around when people were hunter-gatherers. But I think that saying that people “fell into it” skips the interesting question of how it happened. Suffice to say I’m not convinced that it’s as strong an attractor as you’re making it out to be. You could as easily say we “fell into” a system where everybody in the world is bound by unbreakable vows to serve a single dictator; why do you think the former system is more likely than the latter?
Also, how specifically do you think that a system running by unbreakable vows would outcompete ones that don’t? “Avoid coordination problems” is a black box here. In the starting scenario, we have a society bound by sets of Unbreakable Vows between masters, where slaves (who necessarily have some degree of magical powers, otherwise they couldn’t act as binders by giving a fraction of them up) are imperiused into binding the vows, among other societies with different forms of government (probably monarchistic, oligarchic, etc.) The proposed endpoint is that eventually, all societies use this system of governments, because it outcompetes them by being better at solving coordination problems. By what process do you expect this to happen? What coordination problems do you expect them to solve, this way, and how (if you posit that they outcompete other countries in war, for example, what specifically do the people in this society do that makes them more effective in war than what other societies are doing, and why do they do it?)
It sounds to me like the devil of such a system is in the details. “Perfect cooperation, solve all coordination problems” sounds good, but if I think in terms of actual people behaving in characteristic ways, I don’t see them taking steps to a particularly effective system by default.
Yes, you make good points. You are probably correct in saying that the scenario could go any number of ways. But my most essential point is this: The Unbreakable Vow is literally a perfect coordination system. That is to say, there is no way of Defecting when you made an Unbreakable Vow to Cooperate. Looking at governments around us, compared to a system like that, they look like nothing more then a hodgepodge of inefficient hacks. People hacked up that (comparative) kludge of a system, because there is nothing better. If there was, I think it’s unlikely that they would ignore it and set up a kludgy government like ours instead. In fact, someone from that world would probably find our notions of “government” insane and laughable. (And that person would be right. Compared to a network of Unbreakable Vows, it is.)
My point is, this system is not only better then ours, but so much better that ours pales in comparison. Yes, the devil is in the details, but still,what you are proposing is that that everyone ignores the much better option and settles for the kludgey system that we have. May I suggest that perhaps that is nothing more than status quo bias?
And yes, if the Unbreakable Vow was invented after governments were, the government would try to crack down on this system, to preserve its own power if nothing else. But throughout history, many governments have cracked down on many good ideas, and often the good ideas eventually are accepted. I think that it would be especially true for this system, which is, as I said earlier, simply better then any other possible way of solving coordination problems.
(Although, please note that the system we are discussing (with imperiused binders) is actually a bit more complex, and so a bit worse than a form of the Unbreakable Vow which had no cost to the binder or did not require a binder. But my points still stand, as even though this system is not quite perfect, it still is heads and tails better than the systems of governments.)
One last thing: You asked for details of how society with this network would be better than society with a normal government. It is better in a lot of ways, and here I can not give a full listing of them, but think back for a moment in HPMOR to the chapters entitled “Coordination Problems”. I think those chapters give a good feel of just how hard coordination problems are to deal with. For some examples of cooperating problems that would affect a nation, here is a short and incomplete list. (By the way, please note that we have for the most part solved these problems pretty decently with laws and governments. But look at the huge room for improvement. Remember that under a system like this one, these all would be absolutely and completely solved problems. There would be nothing left to discus about them.)
Crime (Is someone going to jump out at me and steal my stuff or try to kill me?)
Trustworthy Business Dealings (When I pay him, will he deliver the goods, or will he try to cheat me?)
Public Works (We need this bridge built. If I throw in my share, how can I be sure everyone else will to?)
Coups (If we assign this guy to be in charge of this important thing (maybe an army battalion), will he use it for the common good, or will he try to take over?)
Treason (How can we know that our citizens are not secretly working for the enemy?)
And I am sure that given this list to start with you can think of many more.
But my most essential point is this: The Unbreakable Vow is literally a perfect coordination system. That is to say, there is no way of Defecting when you made an Unbreakable Vow to Cooperate.
But on the other hand, you also can’t break a vow that turns out after the fact to be a bad idea. Without it, you can adapt to circumstances and then justify your actions as having been appropriate at the time. With it, if you’ve made a Vow that doesn’t adapt well, you’re in trouble. A system of Unbreakable Vows is only a perfect coordination system if the vows themselves are perfectly thought out, which people do not achieve by default.
My point is, this system is not only better then ours, but so much better that ours pales in comparison. Yes, the devil is in the details, but still,what you are proposing is that that everyone ignores the much better option and settles for the kludgey system that we have. May I suggest that perhaps that is nothing more than status quo bias?
My issue is that you seem to be assuming that people can just “fall into” a perfect system without giving any details for how they reach that optimum rather than getting stalled at some messy hacks where they are likely to remain due to status quo bias.
What I asked for is not simply a list of ways that such a society, if perfected, would have advantages over our own. I can think of those perfectly well myself. What I asked for was an explanation of the specific steps by which you expect a society would achieve those implementations. For instance, you start out with a regular society, with crime. The Unbreakable Vow is discovered. What steps, specifically, do you believe will occur which result in the endpoint of a society where everyone is bound by a network of Unbreakable Vows to commit no crime?
Just because it seems obvious to you that the end result would be better doesn’t mean that people would implement it. In a Tragedy of the Commons, there are often ways that the agents involved could arrange to cooperate among each other (each one could provide collateral which will be returned after a given period if they cooperate, but confiscated if they defect, for instance,) so that everyone will have a greater expected utility if they cooperate than if they do not cooperate, and a higher expected utility than if they did not implement a cooperation scheme. But in practice, people don’t usually implement such schemes when left to their own devices. To show that people would be likely to adopt such a system, it’s not sufficient to demonstrate its advantages.
The Unbreakable Vow is discovered. What steps, specifically, do you believe will occur which result in the endpoint of a society where everyone is bound by a network of Unbreakable Vows to commit no crime?
Words of honor for parole (think prisoners of war etc.) have historically often served as punishments or forms of security, with the major advantage of being light-weight and minimizing costs and suffering. A huge chunk of all crime is committed by repeat offenders. Hence, crime could be cut by something like an order of magnitude just by making UVs a prerequisite for parole.
This requires no special societal shifts, and is in line with existing jurisprudence using things like ankle monitors to deter breaking terms of parole or committing additional crimes.
From this visible success which will save billions of dollars and millions of lives in the long run, can come acceptance and a slippery slope down to more widespread use—perhaps beginning with application upon simple arrest, much like criminal records can begin compilation these days without anyone whining about state security agencies tracking them (as our ancestors surely would have been angry about, but these days no one can even think of why anyone would object to such state tracking).
I can buy the initiative progressing as far as application of vows upon arrest (although at this point I’m not sure if Ygert is still talking about a system of MoR vows which require the sacrifice of some of a bonder’s power, in which case I suspect it wouldn’t get that far.) But I find it doubtful that it would progress to the point of everyone being bonded to commit no crimes.
The existence of real life government initiatives which have saved large amounts of money and lives have not led the public to conclude that government initiatives in general are trustworthy and should be expanded, so I’m not convinced that the success of such an initiative would be viewed as a mandate for its expansion.
But I find it doubtful that it would progress to the point of everyone being bonded to commit no crimes.
The costs is an issue of friction; in a vacuum with a spherical Unbreakable Vow, would everyone be bound? Eventually. Why not?
Given the high reported cost, there will be lots of people it’s not worth binding, but the exact trade-off will vary. Given the high cost of security and opportunity costs, the cost will have to be large to justify not binding quite a few people (consider how many scores of thousands of dollars it costs to keep an ordinary criminal in prison one year).
The existence of real life government initiatives which have saved large amounts of money and lives have not led the public to conclude that government initiatives in general are trustworthy and should be expanded
Look at what the public does, not what (some of) it says. Governments keep expanding.
Government keeps expanding in some respects, but countries often do not rush to implement programs even when they’ve proven effective in other countries.
I come back here and I find that gwern has made some of the points I wanted to make, and some point even beyond that. As gwern point out, programs similar in goal and expense although lesser in scope exist in the world today. They have been implemented, so saying that in some (or even most) circumstances countries don’t implement this kind of program, is, if not a flawed argument, at least an incomplete one.
But on the other hand, you also can’t break a vow that turns out after the fact to be a bad idea. Without it, you can adapt to circumstances and then justify your actions as having been appropriate at the time. With it, if you’ve made a Vow that doesn’t adapt well, you’re in trouble. A system of Unbreakable Vows is only a perfect coordination system if the vows themselves are perfectly thought out, which people do not achieve by default.
Remember how earlier in HPMOR (chapter 47) Harry swore to take as an enemy whoever it was that killed Narcissa Malfoy? It was no an unbreakable vow, but the same principle applies. Not only was he very careful, with many conditions laid upon the pledge, but the first condition said that Draco could release him from the pledge at any time. There is no danger of a vow like that being not perfectly thought out, because if something goes wrong, you can just have whoever you swore it too annul it. I understand that getting a perfect wording is not trivial, but if you just keep a human in the loop like that, you can avoid most errors.
And a clarification:
(although at this point I’m not sure if Ygert is still talking about a system of MoR vows which require the sacrifice of some of a bonder’s power, in which case I suspect it wouldn’t get that far.)
In a certain sense I am talking about them, as the whole thing started from a discussion of what would happen if we used a specific method to get around the disadvantage, but in practice I am not really talking about them, as with the downside basically gone, there is no real difference between them and an Unbreakable Vow like in canon, with no downside. In other words, I am talking about Unbreakable Vows with no downside, but that could either be the ones we were talking about (with the downside, but with it overcome) or the simpler version which does not have a downside to start out with, and it does not really matter which.
Remember how earlier in HPMOR (chapter 47) Harry swore to take as an enemy whoever it was that killed Narcissa Malfoy? It was no an unbreakable vow, but the same principle applies. Not only was he very careful, with many conditions laid upon the pledge, but the first condition said that Draco could release him from the pledge at any time. There is no danger of a vow like that being not perfectly thought out, because if something goes wrong, you can just have whoever you swore it too annul it. I understand that getting a perfect wording is not trivial, but if you just keep a human in the loop like that, you can avoid most errors.
Harry is one of the most intelligent and rational people in the world, and took great care in designing that oath, (which, as you point out, is not unbreakable,) and he’s still in a position for it to screw him over, since if Draco’s father has been doing his best to change his son’s sympathies, then Draco may not be inclined to release Harry from the Vow even if it turns out Dumbledore burned his mother for good reasons.
If Harry had taken an Unbreakable Vow, then even with the escape clause, he would probably be obligated to treat Dumbledore as his enemy right now, with no way to get Draco to release him from it.
There’s plenty of danger in an imperfectly thought out vow, even if you add a clause that someone can release you from it. Having someone who could release you from your vow isn’t much help if you’re already dead due to having been unable to act in self defense, for instance. Supposing you have to go down to the equivalent of a local police station to get released from a Vow, I would suggest that this probably retains most of the problems of being unable to break the vows at all.
In a certain sense I am talking about them, as the whole thing started from a discussion of what would happen if we used a specific method to get around the disadvantage, but in practice I am not really talking about them, as with the downside basically gone, there is no real difference between them and an Unbreakable Vow like in canon, with no downside. In other words, I am talking about Unbreakable Vows with no downside, but that could either be the ones we were talking about (with the downside, but with it overcome) or the simpler version which does not have a downside to start out with, and it does not really matter which.
If you think it doesn’t matter which, I have to suspect that you’re not thinking very hard of the implications of the MoR method.
Not everyone can be easily imperiused, nor is everyone capable of casting the spell, and it is probably impossible for a single person to keep a large number of people imperiused at once (canon doesn’t say whether it’s possible to imperius more than one person at a time, but provides no evidence that it is, and if it were, we could expect people like Voldemort to make extensive use of this.)
If the people being used as binders are not controlled perpetually, then we have a segment of the population which is being victimized in what many humans would regard as one of the most abhorrent ways possible, being routinely mind controlled into performing acts to which they would not consent of their own volition. These people, to put it lightly, do not like the segment of the population which is doing this to them. The people exploiting them need to make arrangements to keep them safely under control, as with chattel slavery. If such arrangements aren’t strong enough, they’re likely to engage in violent uprisings (although unlikely to succeed if and when they do, they’re less powerful and less well coordinated.)
Not only does the society have to invest labor and resources in keeping this segment of the population under wraps, any enemies who want to destabilize this society would do well to target this system. Kind of like the helot system, which was convenient for the Spartans in terms of productivity and military strength, except for the fact that any time they stayed away from home for too long, they were in danger of a revolt, and they had to make all the other city states they dealt with swear to support the system, since it would be so dangerous for them if anyone tried to destabilize it.
You can increase the security by keeping the people shut away somewhere, but then you lose the productivity of the people being used as binders.
Probably the most efficient method would be to force all the binders into unbreakable oaths not to rebel. You are, of course, still losing a significant portion of the total magical powers of the population by using unbreakable vows en-masse like this, and far from other countries seeing and wanting to copy this system, they’re liable to see it as either an exploitable weakness or a human rights violation, in which case this society could be facing trade sanctions, embargoes, or even war.
And of course, you still have the issue of how society undergoes the steps to reach this point.
Probably the most efficient method would be to force all the binders into unbreakable oaths not to rebel. You are, of course, still losing a significant portion of the total magical powers of the population by using unbreakable vows en-masse like this, and far from other countries seeing and wanting to copy this system, they’re liable to see it as either an exploitable weakness or a human rights violation, in which case this society could be facing trade sanctions, embargoes, or even war.
Look at how effective those are in the real world. You have countries ignoring sanctions and embargoes because there’s a lot of money to be made that way. As for wars with large coalitions, you have the inevitable issues of members suspecting other members of not holding up their end of the war, or using the war to unfairly increase their power vis-a-vis the other members of the coalition.
Of course, it’s not hard to solve all these problems using unbreakable vows, but well. ;)
You have countries ignoring sanctions and embargoes because there’s a lot of money to be made that way.
But you also have success stories of sanctions and embargos inflicting serious pain: just to name the ones I know of off the top of my head, Japan apparently felt itself forced into WWII by a US embargo of necessary supplies, North Korea remains a hellhole and has trouble selling stuff like it used to which forced it to come to the negotiating table over the bank embargos, and Iran is currently grappling with uncontrollable inflation (which may result in hyperinflation) which is attributed to the existing relatively mild sanctions.
There’s plenty of danger in an imperfectly thought out vow, even if you add a clause that someone can release you from it. Having someone who could release you from your vow isn’t much help if you’re already dead due to having been unable to act in self defense, for instance. Supposing you have to go down to the equivalent of a local police station to get released from a Vow, I would suggest that this probably retains most of the problems of being unable to break the vows at all.
You are right, Harry did not add enough layers of precautions. As such, he is in a position for it to screw him over. A truly well thought out Vow would have several escape clauses like this, to different people, and also a clause temporarily suspending the Vow while you go to have it removed if you truly believe that the situation warrants its removal.
Even that might not be enough, but remember: Harry thought his oath out in less than a minute. I thought out my additions in not much more. I imagine that if someone smart brainstormed this for a couple of hours, they would figure out even more elaborate and foolproof mechanisms. And once it gets going, there will be people who spend their whole careers on the question, refining the answer even further.
If you think it doesn’t matter which, I have to suspect that you’re not thinking very hard of the implications of the MoR method.
I think we have a very large difference of opinions here. Remember that in the real world, most societies with slaves lasted quite a long while. Add onto that several additional factors that are greatly to the advantage of the masters and not to the advantage of the slaves, and you see why I think there is not much of a difference.
Numbers. In the example you gave, of the Helot system, please not that there were seven times as many helots as non-helots. That’s right, seven times as many. In this system, you would not need even nearly a one-to one relationship. I would guess that there would be probably no more then one slave needed for every five or six people. This reduces their ability to revolt by so much that it is nearly impossible to compare it.
Magic. I would envision the slaves not having access to wands except when binding a Vow, giving access to wands to only a small fraction of the slave population at a time. Add on to that the fact the the slaves would not get much magical training, and that they have their magic reserves permanently depleted, and you will see that the masters have another insurmountable advantage.
The Imperius Curse. During the time when the slaves do have a wand, they would be under the Imperius Curse. This would not need more than one slave to be controlled by someone’s Imperius Curse at any one point. And remember, when you say that not everyone can be controlled by this curse: In canon, it was a huge surprise that Harry managed to throw it off so easily, the kind of thing you can only get if you are the hero of the story. Most people resistant to it are only that way due to a large amount of willpower built up over the years. And you can just execute people like that.
Unbreakable Vows. I don’t think these are needed, as the other factors cover the possibility of a revolt very well, but if needed, some slaves could be forced into an unbreakable vow not to rebel.
far from other countries seeing and wanting to copy this system, they’re liable to see it as either an exploitable weakness or a human rights violation, in which case this society could be facing trade sanctions, embargoes, or even war.
Remember that the concept of “human rights violations” are something very new, and they did not stop basically every nation that ever existed from keeping some sort sort of slaves. Remember that for thousands of years, there where, sadly, a lot of slaveholding and other human rights violations. And in no case did this result in the moral outrage from the surrounding countries, and certainly not to the point where they declared war or started trade embargos. (By the way, just thinking about it makes me very much appreciate the moral progress humanity has made in the last few hundred years. It truly is incredible if you think about it.)
And of course, you still have the issue of how society undergoes the steps to reach this point.
We have discussed this a lot, and have provided a lot of explanation about how I do not really consider this an issue, and others have chimed in, adding their views on the subject. After all that, I believe we have provided many different angles of the explanation of why this is. If there is a specific part of it that you object to or want clarified, I am happy to discuss it further, but other than that I am not sure that there is more to discuss.
Remember that the concept of “human rights violations” are something very new, and they did not stop basically every nation that ever existed from keeping some sort sort of slaves. Remember that for thousands of years, there where, sadly, a lot of slaveholding and other human rights violations. And in no case did this result in the moral outrage from the surrounding countries, and certainly not to the point where they declared war or started trade embargos. (By the way, just thinking about it makes me very much appreciate the moral progress humanity has made in the last few hundred years. It truly is incredible if you think about it.)
Most civilizations though, did have rules about how you were allowed to treat slaves. The treatment of slaves in antebellum America was worse than in Babylon circa 1700 BC. To get people whose rights are that disregarded by society, you generally need people who’re already regarded as an outgroup unworthy of basic respect.
If we’re positing that the legal system started in a society with a caste system containing something comparable to the Paraiahs, I could buy this as a natural progression. But what you’re suggesting entails rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves. I find it very strange that you think this is something that would happen so naturally as to need no explanation.
We have discussed this a lot, and have provided a lot of explanation about how I do not really consider this an issue, and others have chimed in, adding their views on the subject. After all that, I believe we have provided many different angles of the explanation of why this is. If there is a specific part of it that you object to or want clarified, I am happy to discuss it further, but other than that I am not sure that there is more to discuss.
Do you think that nobody in this community could think up ways to restructure society that would be more practical than what we have now, without positing elements that don’t exist in real life? That nobody could come up with a better education system, or public works system, or so forth? If you think that the fact that a system would be advantageous is sufficient to explain its adoption, that’s a natural conclusion, but it’s one that I find awfully doubtful.
We have some very suboptimal systems in our world, not just for lack of some fantasy element that would make our job easier, but because humans are not naturally that good at optimizing.
Keep in mind also that these people who have their magic drained and their wands kept away, who’re not trusted to be willing contributors to society, are lost productivity from society’s perspective. If we say that the binders, plus the people who’re employed in overseeing them, add up to a fifth of the population, that’s a significant reduction in productivity. Probably not quite 20%, since there’s still some work they could do without magic, but considering how magic dependent wizarding society is, it would be pretty minimal compared to what ordinary citizens do.
In what ways, specifically, do you think this system would manage to more-than-account-for this loss of productivity?
Most civilizations though, did have rules about how you were allowed to treat slaves. The treatment of slaves in antebellum America was worse than in Babylon circa 1700 BC. To get people whose rights are that disregarded by society, you generally need people who’re already regarded as an outgroup unworthy of basic respect.
If we’re positing that the legal system started in a society with a caste system containing something comparable to the Paraiahs, I could buy this as a natural progression. But what you’re suggesting entails rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves. I find it very strange that you think this is something that would happen so naturally as to need no explanation.
You yourself provided an answer to this. It could be a natural progression from a caste system like that. I disagree that these slaves are treated worse than most civilizations through history have kept their slaves. While in the real world slaves had all sorts of horrible things happen to them, here the only bad thing that happens to them is that they don’t get to use magic. Throughout human history, most people lived perfectly fine and happily without magic. While yes, there would be the aspect of having to live in a society where everyone else gets to use magic and you don’t, I don’t think that just that means that this system gives the slaves “rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves”.
Do you think that nobody in this community could think up ways to restructure society that would be more practical than what we have now, without positing elements that don’t exist in real life? That nobody could come up with a better education system, or public works system, or so forth? If you think that the fact that a system would be advantageous is sufficient to explain its adoption, that’s a natural conclusion, but it’s one that I find awfully doubtful.
I think that you are comparing this to the wrong things. This is not just a better education system or a public works system, this is the absolute removal of a set problems that has plagued humanity since there was such a thing as humanity.
I would prefer to offer the analogy as something like this: This (Unbreakable Vow based) system is to the current system as democracy is to a dictatorship (or some other form of pre-democratic government). In the world, many societies found that democratic forms of government where just better than what they had, and so they changed. I am not saying that it was easy or instantaneous, and in many countries the change has not happened (yet). But democracy overwhelmed the entrenched systems (in some nations at least) simply because the people of these countries decided it was better at fulfilling their needs.
And I would say that the difference between a democracy and any other form of government is tiny in comparison to the difference between any form of government and this system. After all, this system is perfect at solving coordination problems, and democracy is not really a very good form of government, it just is better then all other forms of government that have been tried...
In what ways, specifically, do you think this system would manage to more-than-account-for this loss of productivity?
I think we already settled this. I gave a laundry list of problems that could easily be solved by this system of Unbreakable Vows, and of course that is just a small subset of the worlds coordination problems. On the other hand, with magic, everyone already basically has whatever they need. Remember how Harry described it as a “zeroth world country”? The wizarding world is already basically a post-scarcity economy. As such, thier is a lot less meaning to a drop in productivity.
But even without that, what proportion of wizardry jobs actually need magic to do? Most wizarding workers we have seen are shopkeepers, bureaucrats and the like, which don’t really need magic in their activities. And yes, there has to be someone to make the magic items, but even if we assume that there are indeed out of sight magical sweatshops filled with workers making magic items, it would be silly to assume they make up more than 80% of the population, would it not?
You yourself provided an answer to this. It could be a natural progression from a caste system like that. I disagree that these slaves are treated worse than most civilizations through history have kept their slaves. While in the real world slaves had all sorts of horrible things happen to them, here the only bad thing that happens to them is that they don’t get to use magic. Throughout human history, most people lived perfectly fine and happily without magic. While yes, there would be the aspect of having to live in a society where everyone else gets to use magic and you don’t, I don’t think that just that means that this system gives the slaves “rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves”.
I doubt that “the only bad thing that happens to them is that they don’t get to use magic.” After all, these are people who’re regularly mind-controlled into sacrificing their power against their will. They’re kept from using magic because they’re not trusted not to be enemies of the system. Do you seriously expect that they’ll be well treated aside from the fact that they have no legal right to their own mental autonomy?
This sort of system could arise from a preexisting caste system with a sufficiently low caste already available, but if you’re positing something as a historical inevitability, then you can’t just handwave something like that away; it’s not as if this is something you could get in just any civilization. The Paraiah class itself isn’t nearly large enough to account for the proportion of the population we’re already discussing.
If you try to expand the sector of the population that’s sufficiently low on the totem pole as to receive no right to mental autonomy, then you could be looking at large scale class revolts before you have a chance to implement the vows on more than a small sector of the population.
I think that you are comparing this to the wrong things. This is not just a better education system or a public works system, this is the absolute removal of a set problems that has plagued humanity since there was such a thing as humanity.
I would prefer to offer the analogy as something like this: This (Unbreakable Vow based) system is to the current system as democracy is to a dictatorship (or some other form of pre-democratic government). In the world, many societies found that democratic forms of government where just better than what they had, and so they changed.
Democracy was invented about 2500 years ago. It gave the ancient Greeks such a profound sociological advantage over other countries that they outcompeted all their local neighbors until, in short order, other countries were either adopting the system or being subsumed by them. Except, no, that didn’t happen, they were dominated by various autocracies, and democracy vanished from the region for more than a millennium. The Roman Empire expanded far beyond the reaches of the Roman Republic.
Democracy has become so successful in the last few centuries not because provides countries with an innate competitive advantage, but because a) in recent history, some of the most powerful countries in the world have made a deliberate effort to export or impose democracy, and b) it’s an appealing memeplex.
You can call this system “The absolute removal of a set of problems that has plagued humanity since there was a such thing as humanity,” but that doesn’t really say much about how useful it is. The eradication of sneezing would be the absolute removal of a problem that has plagued humanity since there was a such thing as humanity, but that doesn’t mean it would be tremendously helpful. The specific examples you gave for how such a system would be useful were
Crime (Is someone going to jump out at me and steal my stuff or try to kill me?)
Trustworthy Business Dealings (When I pay him, will he deliver the goods, or will he try to cheat me?)
Public Works (We need this bridge built. If I throw in my share, how can I be sure everyone else will to?)
Coups (If we assign this guy to be in charge of this important thing (maybe an army battalion), will he use it for the common good, or will he try to take over?)
Treason (How can we know that our citizens are not secretly working for the enemy?)
In a country like, say, Finland, these aren’t especially pressing problems. Yes, there’s crime, but the rates are pretty low. It’s not as if it subtracts even 10% of the country’s productivity. When a Finnish person pays their taxes for public works, they don’t have to worry that not enough people will pitch in and the work won’t be paid for. A Finnish person can safely assume that when they deal with a business, they’ll get the good or service they paid for. The chances of a coup in Finland are practically nil, and treason is not a significant danger.
These are problems that existing societies on earth have already managed to mostly solve. A better education system, where, for instance, every child of at least average intelligence comes out really understanding empiricism, rationality, and their own comparative advantage, is likely to be considerably more useful to such a society, without raising any tricky ethical issues.
But even without that, what proportion of wizardry jobs actually need magic to do? Most wizarding workers we have seen are shopkeepers, bureaucrats and the like, which don’t really need magic in their activities. And yes, there has to be someone to make the magic items, but even if we assume that there are indeed out of sight magical sweatshops filled with workers making magic items, it would be silly to assume they make up more than 80% of the population, would it not?
Every character we’ve seen in the series uses magic in their daily lives. Even assuming that abilities such as being able to clean objects that would take several minutes of manual labor in a second with a spell, or organize a stockroom in seconds by waving a wand around, do not account for a large proportion of the productivity of the labor force, keep in mind that the magical abilities of the populace are largely responsible for the wizarding world being a “zeroth world country,” as Harry puts it. The longevity of the populace, and much of their medical technology, relies on the innate healing and magical reservoirs of the magically gifted population. You’re costing a significant proportion of the population about half their lifespans, in addition to a large portion of their quality of life (by losing their magical powers and having no right to mental autonomy, they’re forced way, way down the totem pole status-wise, as well as being unable to access many of the conveniences of the magical population,) and a significant part of their productivity, in exchange for solving problems that other societies on earth have already managed to mostly solve.
OK. I think our main disagreement is simply that we have different notions of how advantageous such a system actually is, and if it is advantageous enough to overcome the disadvantages of having a slave system. You seem skeptical that this system really is that broken. I think it is.
The list I gave was a list of the small scale social problems that would be directly resolved, as that was what you asked for. Yes, those are ones which modern government has mostly solved, but there are many more. The Unbreakable Vow solves one of the key parts of human interaction. It’s the cure to many human problems.
As a concrete larger scale example, see for instance the financial crash that happened in 2008. Now I don’t claim to know all the myriad reasons that caused it, but from what I hear of how people have been describing how it happened, it was exactly the sort of problem that could have been solved with Unbreakable Vows. (And it obviously was not solvable even by the most modern form of government, as it did happen, despite modern governments existing.)
Or if you would prefer a fictional example: What if Peter Pettigrew had made an Unbreakable Vow not to betray the Potters? That would utterly have changed the story of the Harry Potter books, and in a way that could not be replicated by any form of government.
You can see cases like these all the time on various scales if you look, and government does not seem to be solving them. (That is not to say that government is useless, government solves some of them, but not all of them.)
But here I will ask you this question: Lets assume that we are in canon Harry Potter where the Unbreakable Vow is not nerfed. There is no cost to making a Vow, and no need for slaves. In this scenario, do you think that civilization would form in a system using the Unbreakable Vow in the ways I described? If not, why did EY nerf the Unbreakable Vow in HPMOR so much? If yes, look at the advantages such a system brings, and ask if those advantages are really outweighed by the disadvantages of having a slave system. (Remembering that most civilization through history have had some sort of slave system or another, and they did quite well in spite of that, so it cannot be that much of a disadvantage.)
As a concrete larger scale example, see for instance the financial crash that happened in 2008. Now I don’t claim to know all the myriad reasons that caused it, but from what I hear of how people have been describing how it happened, it was exactly the sort of problem that could have been solved with Unbreakable Vows. (And it obviously was not solvable even by the most modern form of government, as it did happen, despite modern governments existing.)
It could, in theory, have been prevented with unbreakable vows. It could also have been prevented with laws. The trouble was not that if we designed laws to prevent it, they wouldn’t have been followed, or that nobody had any idea what sort of laws would have been necessary, but that the people who saw the problem in advance and called for those sorts of laws were in the minority, and even after the fact a lot of people still aren’t on board with the sorts of laws that would have prevented it, because they believe it would stifle business interests, because of an ideological Regulation Bad mindset, or a combination of those.
Just because Unbreakable Vows could solve a problem, doesn’t mean they would. We can solve all sorts of problems with government, but don’t, because we’re not that good at using government. You seem to assume that we would default to using Unbreakable Vows perfectly, and I see that as a highly burdensome component of your assertions that requires a lot of evidence.
But here I will ask you this question: Lets assume that we are in canon Harry Potter where the Unbreakable Vow is not nerfed. There is no cost to making a Vow, and no need for slaves. In this scenario, do you think that civilization would form in a system using the Unbreakable Vow in the ways I described? If not, why did EY nerf the Unbreakable Vow in HPMOR so much? If yes, look at the advantages such a system brings, and ask if those advantages are really outweighed by the disadvantages of having a slave system. (Remembering that most civilization through history have had some sort of slave system or another, and they did quite well in spite of that, so it cannot be that much of a disadvantage.)
I think civilization would make extensive use of Unbreakable Vows, and it would have a significant effect. It could, as you point out, prevent events such as Pettigrew betraying the Potters (unless he’d already made a Vow to Voldemort before then, in which case he’d probably have been caught as soon as they tried to put a conflicting Vow on him,) and that sort of thing could completely mangle the story.
But I don’t think it would result in perfect coordination. I think the laws would in many cases continue to be poorly thought out and impractical, and the system would continue to be bad at quickly changing laws that proved to be ineffective for the purposes for which they were supposedly designed. Politics would continue to be influenced by people more driven by tribal ideology than by evidence of what makes their countries better off.
I think the core of these problems is not a lack of a sufficiently powerful enforcement mechanism on agreements, but that the sanity waterline simply isn’t very high.
I think the core of these problems is not a lack of a sufficiently powerful enforcement mechanism on agreements, but that the sanity waterline simply isn’t very high.
Perhaps. I see the way which you are looking at it, and while I don’t agree, I want to say that I think I understand why you look at it this way.
It could, in theory, have been prevented with unbreakable vows. It could also have been prevented with laws. The trouble was not that if we designed laws to prevent it, they wouldn’t have been followed, or that nobody had any idea what sort of laws would have been necessary, but that the people who saw the problem in advance and called for those sorts of laws were in the minority, and even after the fact a lot of people still aren’t on board with the sorts of laws that would have prevented it, because they believe it would stifle business interests, because of an ideological Regulation Bad mindset, or a combination of those.
I want to make the point that Unbreakable Vows are way better than laws in this form of situation. A law is something that is hard to get perfect, is costly to implement, and in general would cause the bad effects that you listed. On the other hand, Unbreakable Vows are not regulations, they would be the companies and people themselves agreeing to self-regulate, and while this might not be enforceable through normal contract law, it is with Unbreakable Vows. (They would arrange and agree to the Unbreakable Vows because they themselves do not want a crash. The companies and people involved did not want the crash after all...)
One might say though that no one predicted the crash upfront, so why would they have made the Unbreakable Vows? This is a valid point, and is perhaps the great weakness of the system. But all in all it is not insurmountable, as I think that in principle these things are predictable, (That is to say they are not truly random) and with the right incentives, people will choose to prepare for everything,
I think civilization would make extensive use of Unbreakable Vows, and it would have a significant effect. It could, as you point out, prevent events such as Pettigrew betraying the Potters (unless he’d already made a Vow to Voldemort before then, in which case he’d probably have been caught as soon as they tried to put a conflicting Vow on him,) and that sort of thing could completely mangle the story.
So the big question is how prevalent and powerful the effects would be. I think this boils down in essence to the most fundamental political divide. A libertarian would say that an all-powerful contract enforcement mechanism would obliviate the need for a government at all, as after all that is what a government really boils down to in a libertarian view, and Unbreakable Vows just do that better. On the other hand, someone who is more conservative/statist would say that while it would have a significant effect on the contract system, the government does do things that don’t boil down to just enforcing contracts (from that viewpoint), and so there would still be a need for a government, which would continue in much the way governments do nowadays.
So I think that seems to be our main difference. You are said :
I think the laws would in many cases continue to be poorly thought out and impractical, and the system would continue to be bad at quickly changing laws that proved to be ineffective for the purposes for which they were supposedly designed. Politics would continue to be influenced by people more driven by tribal ideology than by evidence of what makes their countries better off.
While on the other hand I am saying that there would be no such thing as politics or government as we know it in this situation, as with a perfect contract enforcement mechanism, they are completely unnecessary, and would be abandoned.
This isn’t a fact that distinguishes a law from a contract. Problems of interpretation are just as big an issue in contract litigation as in legal compliance.
True, but the main difference is one of choice: You get to choose what contracts you sign, but not what laws you follow. If you get screwed by a misinterpreted contract, well that’s sad, but you are partially responsible for it, as you can view what happened as a slip in your foresight, you made a mistake, didn’t plan for this eventuality, and you paid the price for that slip-up.
On the other hand, if it’s a law, some dolt in wherever the capital of your country is made the mistake, but you have to suffer the consequences. You see the difference? If someone makes a bad choice and hurts themselves, it is sad, and they learn for next time, but it is an accepted basic moral fact that ultimately people should be able to make their own choices, for good or ill.
Maybe it’s just me being too free market/libertarian, but it feels a lot sadder when someone screws something up for others then if that person makes a mistake that only hurts themselves.
I’m not trying to criticize your libertarian argument—I’m actually fairly sympathetic to those types of policy arguments. It’s just that interpretive difficulty isn’t a difference between statute and contract.
Writing text with a clear and unambiguous meaning is hard, even if one desires to write clearly. And the causes of interpretive difficulties are strongly parallel:
differing policy preferences of individual legislators vs. different economic incentives of contract counter-parties.
issues can be unanticipated by all parties, which means the outcome of a dispute is essentially random (from an ex ante perspective).
In short, it’s just a fact about language that your choices don’t really affect the clarity of your legal obligations (either statutory or contractual). The deadweight loss of regulation isn’t a result of unclear regulation—even the clearest distortion of the market outcome costs some surplus value from the transaction.
Thank you for pointing out this aspect. It is a valid argument, and so the question is, how do you phrase it to avoid that. (A similar point was also made by Eugine_Nier) In a certain sense, this is the exact same problem as the one of FAI. (Which we all know is very hard.) Upon reflection, I don’t think the Unbreakable Vow is so strict in its interpretation of Vows, because if it were, safe Unbreakable Vows at all would be next to impossible. We do see Unbreakable Vows happening in the story though, so that is evidence for magic being slightly flexible in its interpretation of Vows.
Of course, magic does not exist in real life, and so we cannot do experiments on it to see how “strict” and literal the Unbreakable Vow is, so we cannot fully tell if such a system would actually work or not. It just depends on the author, really.
But if Unbreakable Vows are loose enough to be used the way they are both in canon and in HPMOR without screwing the participants over, I think it probably is good enough to work in our scenario, at least if we make sure to use very user-dependent wording. In other words, I think that a Vow something like ” I vow that I under a reasonable human interpretation of it” would probably be OK. (Remember in canon and HPMOR we see people making such Vows without the last clause, and the Vows don’t seem to screw them over, so if we are extra careful and add on extra clauses like that, it seems likely that it could work.)
But, of course, what we really want to do before putting these Vows into mass production is to do some experiments, see how they actually work in practice, see if they are safe. Sadly, they do not exist in real life, so this question might never be solved.
Um . . . I think you are still misunderstanding my objection. From the same sentence as the point I’m criticizing:
[A law] is costly to implement, and in general would cause . . . bad effects
Those are good points in favor of a libertarian perspective on public policy. Interpretive difficulties don’t belong on that list. To quote Sesame Street, one thing on your list just isn’t like the others.
OK. I might be misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that a problem with Unbreakable Vows is that they would go by a strict, literal, genie-like interpretation of whatever you say, which would cause bad results. But I might just have been thinking of that because Desrtopa raised an argument of that type a couple of posts ago. If that is not your objection, feel free to restate it in a clearer way. But ultimately, I do suspect we are mostly in agreement, and that there is no particularly major difference between our opinions.
Sure. I’m saying that it is extremely difficult to reduce intended outcome to words.
Both statutes and contracts are attempts to reduce intention to words, and they have a roughly equivalent failure rate. Thus, problems arising from mismatch of word and intent (i.e. interpretive problems) are not a reason to prefer contracts over statutes.
A society based on contracts based entirely on unbreakable wows would kill far too many people, or alternatively, would require fairly insane levels of OCD checking that no contract conflicts with any other. And, as a practical matter, asking people to submit to lethal enforcement of employment contracts, and other minor business is just not going to fly. A multi-million-galleon deal? Sure. Having someone fix your plumbing… eh. No.
On the other hand, the government would be warped completely out of recognition. Because oaths of office would be unbreakable, and based on a long tradition of very careful wording. So you get government by the utterly incorruptible oath bound. Which would look nothing like any government that has ever existed. Because it would have perfect trust from the citizenry, virtually no agency problems, and no need for any checks or balances other than the oaths whatsoever.
“The Unbreakable Vow is too useful to certain wealthy Houses to be outlawed entirely—even though to bind a man’s will through all his days is indeed a dread and terrible act, more fearsome than many lesser rituals that wizards shun. [...] The one who makes the Vow must be someone who could have chosen to do what the Vow demands of them, and they sacrifice that capacity for choice. And the third wizard, the binder, permanently sacrifices a small portion of their own magic, to sustain the Vow forever.
reads to me more like a sort of permanent, irresistible Imperius. I can see it could be meant the other way, though.
’This indeed a word, and it’s not impossible that it might be what ygert intended. But I think it’s much more likely that it was meant to be “obviate”.
Huh. My copy of the OED agrees with Merriam-Webster (and everything I can find online) that there’s no real word between “obliterative” and “oblivion”. What edition are you referencing?
Anyway, “obviate the need for” is such a common phrasing that I don’t feel terribly unjustified in my presumption. I suppose that’s for ygert to decide, though.
I am using the Windows Second Edition release from 2009. Screenshot of the ‘obliviate’ entry I was quoting, which certainly does not say anything about it not existing prior to Rowling: http://i.imgur.com/PFADb.png
Now I’m not sure if you’re serious. The last quote is from the mid-1800s, and the usage is synonymous with “forget” so it wouldn’t make sense in ygert’s context anyway.
So? I use words as rare as that all the time, and it could be an independent invention.
the usage is synonymous with “forget” so it wouldn’t make sense in ygert’s context anyway.
Committing government to oblivion as useless and a waste fits in nicely with quotes 2 and 3.
So to sum up: the word ‘obliviate’ exists before Rowling and you were wrong about it not being a real world; then, you were wrong about it not being in the OED; now, you are wrong that it does not fit the usage; and you are still trying to correct me!
You well deserve your username—the first half anyway.
I want to make the point that Unbreakable Vows are way better than laws in this form of situation. A law is something that is hard to get perfect, is costly to implement, and in general would cause the bad effects that you listed. On the other hand, Unbreakable Vows are not regulations, they would be the companies and people themselves agreeing to self-regulate, and while this might not be enforceable through normal contract law, it is with Unbreakable Vows. (They would arrange and agree to the Unbreakable Vows because they themselves do not want a crash. The companies and people involved did not want the crash after all...)
How does this distinguish an Unbreakable Vow from a law? If the companies had foreseen the effects of their business practices, they would have wanted a law against them, and adhered to the law so that they could avoid the crash. How do Unbreakable Vows solve the problem of the companies not acknowledging the danger of their practices and thus not wanting them to be regulated?
One might say though that no one predicted the crash upfront, so why would they have made the Unbreakable Vows? This is a valid point, and is perhaps the great weakness of the system. But all in all it is not insurmountable, as I think that in principle these things are predictable, (That is to say they are not truly random) and with the right incentives, people will choose to prepare for everything,
People did predict the crash up front in real life. It wasn’t enough for people to pass laws to prevent it. In fact, a system of Unbreakable Vows as you describe could quite easily be harder to put in place than a law. A law can be passed if only the legislators are convinced it’s a good idea, but the system of vows requires the businesspeople to be convinced it’s a good idea.
I thought you had in mind a system where a body passes laws, and the whole population takes vows to obey all those laws. This would solve issues of noncompliance, but not issues of stupid laws. I suspect that the system you’re recommending would be less well coordinated than what we already have, because the abundance of historical evidence suggests that people tend to be very bad at choosing when and how to self regulate, and it’s not as if we don’t have mechanisms in real life that people could use to prevent most defection.
It seems like your position is “If we had a mechanism to prevent all defection, people would become smart about self regulating.” I think that’s really, really unlikely.
If the companies had foreseen the effects of their business practices, they would have wanted a law against them, and adhered to the law so that they could avoid the crash.
No. False. Let’s model it in game theory terms. There are a number of players (companies) and each one chooses to act responsibly or not. If all or most players act responsibly, they all reap the benefits of no crash. If some act irresponsibly, they reap a greater benefit. But if a high enough proportion of companies act irresponsibly, there is a crash and everybody loses. (This kind of problem is a very common type of game theory problem, which has been analysed a lot. (It’s actually a close relative of the Prisoner’s Dilemma.)) The Nash equilibrium of this game is everyone defecting and acting irresponsibly, which leads to a bad result that no one wants, and everyone is unhappy.
So how do we solve it, we can make laws which give a negative incentive to acting irresponsibly, and thus move the equilibrium of the game. (And of course the players do want that, as it simply gives them a better outcome from the game.) And that’s fine, it sometimes works, but some other times the law’s negative incentives don’t work out, and the equilibrium is everyone acting irresponsibly again. This is because the law cannot perfectly control what people do, as one can always break the law, and often get away with it.
An Unbreakable Vow is unbreakable though, and so rather then have government regulations, which are clumsy and sometimes don’t work, if the companies have that much contractual power, that is they can make contracts that are actually and completely unbreakable… One of the simplest solutions in game theory to problems of this type is that you just allow the agents to precommit to their strategies.
I thought you had in mind a system where a body passes laws, and the whole population takes vows to obey all those laws. This would solve issues of noncompliance, but not issues of stupid laws. I suspect that the system you’re recommending would be less well coordinated than what we already have, because the abundance of historical evidence suggests that people tend to be very bad at choosing when and how to self regulate, and it’s not as if we don’t have mechanisms in real life that people could use to prevent most defection.
As you can see now, this is not the system I had in mind at all. Remember, what is the point of governments? To enforce the kind of thing that the Unbreakable Vows enforce much better. That is why in this scenario I very much doubt there would be any sort of government as we know it at all.
Remember, actually people are quite good at self regulating. In a roundabout way, of course, by establishing governments and empowering them to regulate. That whole roundabout method of having social contracts enforced by a government seems rather roundabout and convoluted if it could be bypassed and the contracts enforced directly by magic.
So how do we solve it, we can make laws which give a negative incentive to acting irresponsibly, and thus move the equilibrium of the game. (And of course the players do want that, as it simply gives them a better outcome from the game.) And that’s fine, it sometimes works, but some other times the law’s negative incentives don’t work out, and the equilibrium is everyone acting irresponsibly again. This is because the law cannot perfectly control what people do, as one can always break the law, and often get away with it.
But if breaking the law and getting away with it is unlikely, then the rational actors won’t try. What the companies would have wanted, had they been rational good predictors, was a well enforced law which heavily punished defection. This way they would all have had higher expected utility than the scenario in which there was no law.
But they did not push for this. In fact, all the lobbying action was in the other direction. The business practices that resulted in the crash were previously illegal. If you want to make a convincing case that they would have done better in a system with an unbreakable enforcement mechanism, you’ve got to demonstrate that in spite of appearances, an adequate enforcement mechanism, rather than adequate predictive power and rationality, was what was missing.
As you can see now, this is not the system I had in mind at all. Remember, what is the point of governments? To enforce the kind of thing that the Unbreakable Vows enforce much better. That is why in this scenario I very much doubt there would be any sort of government as we know it at all.
Remember, actually people are quite good at self regulating. In a roundabout way, of course, by establishing governments and empowering them to regulate. That whole roundabout method of having social contracts enforced by a government seems rather roundabout and convoluted if it could be bypassed and the contracts enforced directly by magic.
Government doesn’t just provide people with an enforcement mechanism for coordination problems, it also provides a workaround for lack of information, and ideally for irrationality, in coordination problems.
Suppose that chemical A which is used in a manufacturing process is highly toxic, and that chemical gets into the environment in the course of the process, and causes a lot of harm to people and wildlife. 0.2% of the population (those who understand the chemistry and have read the relevant studies) know this, and of those, all who are not employed by the manufacturing company agree that the chemical should not be used in that manufacturing process. The other 99.8% has no opinion. If the population has perfect enforcement for agreements, but no oversight body, and all agreements are worked out on an individual basis, then the manufacturing company will continue using the chemical, affecting everyone, not just the people who know enough to care. If there is an oversight body charged with creating rules for the population whose job it is to pass rules that are in the public’s interests, whether or not the public knows enough to care about them, the people who know about the effects of the chemical can go to the oversight body and say “as you can see, the evidence favors this chemical being harmful, and we all agree you should make a rule against using it,” and the oversight body can look at the evidence and pass the rule. By having a body whose full time job it is to look at issues that potentially warrant the creation of rules, judge evidence, and determine which rules would be good to pass, the population as a whole can review more issues which potentially impact the whole society, at less opportunity cost to the whole population. If everyone took the time to research every issue that might be worth making a rule about, they wouldn’t have time to do anything else.
The “irrational choices” and “lack of information” sections of Yvain’s Non-Libertarian FAQ are good reading on this topic.
But if breaking the law and getting away with it is unlikely, then the rational actors won’t try. What the companies would have wanted, had they been rational good predictors, was a well enforced law which heavily punished defection. This way they would all have had higher expected utility than the scenario in which there was no law.
Of course a well enforced law that heavily punished defection would be just as good as an Unbreakable Vow, but in a certain sense that’s my point. The best case scenario in the case of a law (that is, of the law being well enforced and with harsh penalties) is the default scenario if you are using Unbreakable Vows.
Government doesn’t just provide people with an enforcement mechanism for coordination problems, it also provides a workaround for lack of information, and ideally for irrationality, in coordination problems.
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The “irrational choices” and “lack of information” sections of Yvain’s Non-Libertarian FAQ are good reading on this topic.
This is what I was saying earlier, the main difference between our points of views is one of the most basic political questions, of what viewpoint on the libertarian-statist axis you accept. In other words, how much of government should be workarounds for that sort of thing.
You know what, I honestly don’t know the real answer to that question. It is one of the biggest questions of that type, and so it is fitting not to know the exact answer to it. That said, I do slightly tend toward taking a more libertarian point of view. I do understand that what you said is in fact one of the main points against libertarianism and toward more government intervention. All in all, the answer is far from obvious, and here is not the best place to get into a big discussion about it.
So, all in all, I think that this discussion is a result of a much lower level and more subtle disagreement. Maybe I am being too idealistic and putting too much faith in human beings, and maybe you are being too cynical and putting too much faith in governments. In practice, the only way to see if this system works is to try it out, which is (sadly?) impossible seeing as the unbreakable Vow does not exist in the real world.
I think you’re overestimating how powerful the Unbreakable Vow is, on a social level. People who use the Imperius Curse do not automatically cooperate with each other as fellow imperiusers. They don’t form a unified pro-Imperius voting bloc. Any individual who tries to bind people in this way is a social threat to anyone who doesn’t trust them absolutely. Each person who behaves in such a way is a potential candidate trying to take over society, so anyone who tries it is practically inviting absolute war against themselves.
Aha! I think I spot the misunderstanding: In this scenario, no one is trying to “bind people in this way”. I am not positing that you do use the Imperius curse to make other people make an Unbreakable Vow to you, but rather I am positing that pairs of people both agree to make an Unbreakable Vow between the pair of them (with the Imperius curse used on the binder), so that they can reap the benefits of mutual cooperation.
As such, it is absurd to say they wouldn’t form a unified voting block. Their power comes from the fact that they are magically unified, so that they can trust one another absolutely.
In that case, they might be able to form a unified voting bloc, but even so they’re going to appear as an active threat to everyone else. Things like this are among the reasons why the Imperius curse is as forbidden as it is. If the people attempting this were caught, it wouldn’t matter if they were all voting in favor of its legality, any more than we would let convicted murdering congressmen try to pass a bill legalizing murder. It’s not something that the rest of society is likely to be amenable to if a bunch of lawmakers stand up for it, the fact that they would vote for it at all would be highly suspicious and threatening to their social standings.
They allowed lawmakers to legalize the Unforgivables during Voldemort’s uprising; I have a hard time believing a great many people would object to a bill allowing a service where Aurors Imperius Azkaban inmates to bind vows.
The larger point being, any society could find or make an outgroup sufficiently unsympathetic to allow regulated use of the Imperius for the public good.
The use of the unforgivable curses was only legalized for a fairly brief period, I doubt they explored the space of possible uses very thoroughly And for all we know, they did imperius people to use as binders, but stopped after the war ended and the use of unforgivable curses became illegal again.
Also, just because a society could do that, doesn’t mean they would. You might say that any society could find or make an outgroup sufficiently unsympathetic that they would be willing to impose slavery on them, and slavery is likely to be a public good if you discount the values of the enslaved, but that doesn’t mean that all societies will gravitate to slavery.
This might be, and they might in fact succeed or they might fail. It seems the kind of thing someone could write a very interesting story about, and if that story is ever written, I would like to read it. But I find it unlikely in a world like this that there even would be a government with laws against this sort of thing in the first place. The propose of government is to provide a framework in which people can be sure of their fellows Cooperating in prisoner’s dilemma type scenarios, and while it works most of the time, a network of Unbreakable Vows would work a lot better then any form of government. As such, it is probable that in this world, rather then there being a system of laws in the first place, it would be a system of Unbreakable Vows.
A world like that would be very different then the one described in canon Harry Potter or in HPMOR, and that is why EY nerfed it. In the end, I think it boils down to this: You have to think not in the form of some group trying to take over with their new but ethically dubious system, but rather think in the form of their existing form the beginning a much better system then the one we know, and so everyone uses that one instead, despite the ethical problems. (Human nature being what it is, people can accept even large amount of ethical wrongness if they benefit enough from it. Just look at the example of slavery in the real world.)
What do you mean by “this sort of thing?” There’s no implication that Unbreakable Vows are illegal, although coercing a third party into being a binder for them is, for understandable reasons.
How do you envision a network of Unbreakable Vows coming into existence and being implemented in practice? Given a sufficiently sophisticated and insightful Vow drafting system, I can imagine that society would be better off under such a system than under traditional government, but society doesn’t simply jump to optimums by default.
I meant using the Imperius for the purpose of forcing people be the binder to your Unbreakable Vows. More precisely, I would envision a society with some form of slavery, in which the slaves were made to serve as binder to the Unbreakable Vows of their masters.
As to how I envision this system coming into existence, I imagine that when the first hunter-gatherers were settling down and moving over to farming, rather then falling into the system which they fell into in our world (that is to say governments, which do work, although inefficiently), they used the much better alternative of networks of Unbreakable Vows.
(In fact, in any universe were there is such a powerful and easy to implement commitment mechanism I would expect it to be used instead of government, as it performs all the tasks governments to do, but better. Again, there is a reason why EY nerfed it so hard. Using a system of Unbreakable Vows is not just an optimum, it is miles and miles better then any possible other system at solving coordination problems, as it is quite literally perfect at solving those problems.)
Even if it is not obvious to everyone that this system is better then normal governance, at least one group/nation/city state of these farmers would use it, and they would out compete everyone else, seeing as they have this amazing magical power to avoid coordination problems, which is a very, very big deal. (As we discussed earlier.)
(Note that this is assuming wizards are around at this point in history, and that they settle down as farmers with everyone else. I think this is a pretty reasonable assumption, but even if it is not true, these same events will happen sooner or later when wizards do eventually come along and settle down.)
Well, it’s worth keeping in mind that the Unbreakable Vow was probably not discovered until well after government had been invented; it wasn’t around when people were hunter-gatherers. But I think that saying that people “fell into it” skips the interesting question of how it happened. Suffice to say I’m not convinced that it’s as strong an attractor as you’re making it out to be. You could as easily say we “fell into” a system where everybody in the world is bound by unbreakable vows to serve a single dictator; why do you think the former system is more likely than the latter?
Also, how specifically do you think that a system running by unbreakable vows would outcompete ones that don’t? “Avoid coordination problems” is a black box here. In the starting scenario, we have a society bound by sets of Unbreakable Vows between masters, where slaves (who necessarily have some degree of magical powers, otherwise they couldn’t act as binders by giving a fraction of them up) are imperiused into binding the vows, among other societies with different forms of government (probably monarchistic, oligarchic, etc.) The proposed endpoint is that eventually, all societies use this system of governments, because it outcompetes them by being better at solving coordination problems. By what process do you expect this to happen? What coordination problems do you expect them to solve, this way, and how (if you posit that they outcompete other countries in war, for example, what specifically do the people in this society do that makes them more effective in war than what other societies are doing, and why do they do it?)
It sounds to me like the devil of such a system is in the details. “Perfect cooperation, solve all coordination problems” sounds good, but if I think in terms of actual people behaving in characteristic ways, I don’t see them taking steps to a particularly effective system by default.
Yes, you make good points. You are probably correct in saying that the scenario could go any number of ways. But my most essential point is this: The Unbreakable Vow is literally a perfect coordination system. That is to say, there is no way of Defecting when you made an Unbreakable Vow to Cooperate. Looking at governments around us, compared to a system like that, they look like nothing more then a hodgepodge of inefficient hacks. People hacked up that (comparative) kludge of a system, because there is nothing better. If there was, I think it’s unlikely that they would ignore it and set up a kludgy government like ours instead. In fact, someone from that world would probably find our notions of “government” insane and laughable. (And that person would be right. Compared to a network of Unbreakable Vows, it is.)
My point is, this system is not only better then ours, but so much better that ours pales in comparison. Yes, the devil is in the details, but still,what you are proposing is that that everyone ignores the much better option and settles for the kludgey system that we have. May I suggest that perhaps that is nothing more than status quo bias?
And yes, if the Unbreakable Vow was invented after governments were, the government would try to crack down on this system, to preserve its own power if nothing else. But throughout history, many governments have cracked down on many good ideas, and often the good ideas eventually are accepted. I think that it would be especially true for this system, which is, as I said earlier, simply better then any other possible way of solving coordination problems.
(Although, please note that the system we are discussing (with imperiused binders) is actually a bit more complex, and so a bit worse than a form of the Unbreakable Vow which had no cost to the binder or did not require a binder. But my points still stand, as even though this system is not quite perfect, it still is heads and tails better than the systems of governments.)
One last thing: You asked for details of how society with this network would be better than society with a normal government. It is better in a lot of ways, and here I can not give a full listing of them, but think back for a moment in HPMOR to the chapters entitled “Coordination Problems”. I think those chapters give a good feel of just how hard coordination problems are to deal with. For some examples of cooperating problems that would affect a nation, here is a short and incomplete list. (By the way, please note that we have for the most part solved these problems pretty decently with laws and governments. But look at the huge room for improvement. Remember that under a system like this one, these all would be absolutely and completely solved problems. There would be nothing left to discus about them.)
Crime (Is someone going to jump out at me and steal my stuff or try to kill me?)
Trustworthy Business Dealings (When I pay him, will he deliver the goods, or will he try to cheat me?)
Public Works (We need this bridge built. If I throw in my share, how can I be sure everyone else will to?)
Coups (If we assign this guy to be in charge of this important thing (maybe an army battalion), will he use it for the common good, or will he try to take over?)
Treason (How can we know that our citizens are not secretly working for the enemy?)
And I am sure that given this list to start with you can think of many more.
But on the other hand, you also can’t break a vow that turns out after the fact to be a bad idea. Without it, you can adapt to circumstances and then justify your actions as having been appropriate at the time. With it, if you’ve made a Vow that doesn’t adapt well, you’re in trouble. A system of Unbreakable Vows is only a perfect coordination system if the vows themselves are perfectly thought out, which people do not achieve by default.
My issue is that you seem to be assuming that people can just “fall into” a perfect system without giving any details for how they reach that optimum rather than getting stalled at some messy hacks where they are likely to remain due to status quo bias.
What I asked for is not simply a list of ways that such a society, if perfected, would have advantages over our own. I can think of those perfectly well myself. What I asked for was an explanation of the specific steps by which you expect a society would achieve those implementations. For instance, you start out with a regular society, with crime. The Unbreakable Vow is discovered. What steps, specifically, do you believe will occur which result in the endpoint of a society where everyone is bound by a network of Unbreakable Vows to commit no crime?
Just because it seems obvious to you that the end result would be better doesn’t mean that people would implement it. In a Tragedy of the Commons, there are often ways that the agents involved could arrange to cooperate among each other (each one could provide collateral which will be returned after a given period if they cooperate, but confiscated if they defect, for instance,) so that everyone will have a greater expected utility if they cooperate than if they do not cooperate, and a higher expected utility than if they did not implement a cooperation scheme. But in practice, people don’t usually implement such schemes when left to their own devices. To show that people would be likely to adopt such a system, it’s not sufficient to demonstrate its advantages.
Words of honor for parole (think prisoners of war etc.) have historically often served as punishments or forms of security, with the major advantage of being light-weight and minimizing costs and suffering. A huge chunk of all crime is committed by repeat offenders. Hence, crime could be cut by something like an order of magnitude just by making UVs a prerequisite for parole.
This requires no special societal shifts, and is in line with existing jurisprudence using things like ankle monitors to deter breaking terms of parole or committing additional crimes.
From this visible success which will save billions of dollars and millions of lives in the long run, can come acceptance and a slippery slope down to more widespread use—perhaps beginning with application upon simple arrest, much like criminal records can begin compilation these days without anyone whining about state security agencies tracking them (as our ancestors surely would have been angry about, but these days no one can even think of why anyone would object to such state tracking).
I can buy the initiative progressing as far as application of vows upon arrest (although at this point I’m not sure if Ygert is still talking about a system of MoR vows which require the sacrifice of some of a bonder’s power, in which case I suspect it wouldn’t get that far.) But I find it doubtful that it would progress to the point of everyone being bonded to commit no crimes.
The existence of real life government initiatives which have saved large amounts of money and lives have not led the public to conclude that government initiatives in general are trustworthy and should be expanded, so I’m not convinced that the success of such an initiative would be viewed as a mandate for its expansion.
The costs is an issue of friction; in a vacuum with a spherical Unbreakable Vow, would everyone be bound? Eventually. Why not?
Given the high reported cost, there will be lots of people it’s not worth binding, but the exact trade-off will vary. Given the high cost of security and opportunity costs, the cost will have to be large to justify not binding quite a few people (consider how many scores of thousands of dollars it costs to keep an ordinary criminal in prison one year).
Look at what the public does, not what (some of) it says. Governments keep expanding.
Government keeps expanding in some respects, but countries often do not rush to implement programs even when they’ve proven effective in other countries.
I come back here and I find that gwern has made some of the points I wanted to make, and some point even beyond that. As gwern point out, programs similar in goal and expense although lesser in scope exist in the world today. They have been implemented, so saying that in some (or even most) circumstances countries don’t implement this kind of program, is, if not a flawed argument, at least an incomplete one.
Remember how earlier in HPMOR (chapter 47) Harry swore to take as an enemy whoever it was that killed Narcissa Malfoy? It was no an unbreakable vow, but the same principle applies. Not only was he very careful, with many conditions laid upon the pledge, but the first condition said that Draco could release him from the pledge at any time. There is no danger of a vow like that being not perfectly thought out, because if something goes wrong, you can just have whoever you swore it too annul it. I understand that getting a perfect wording is not trivial, but if you just keep a human in the loop like that, you can avoid most errors.
And a clarification:
In a certain sense I am talking about them, as the whole thing started from a discussion of what would happen if we used a specific method to get around the disadvantage, but in practice I am not really talking about them, as with the downside basically gone, there is no real difference between them and an Unbreakable Vow like in canon, with no downside. In other words, I am talking about Unbreakable Vows with no downside, but that could either be the ones we were talking about (with the downside, but with it overcome) or the simpler version which does not have a downside to start out with, and it does not really matter which.
Harry is one of the most intelligent and rational people in the world, and took great care in designing that oath, (which, as you point out, is not unbreakable,) and he’s still in a position for it to screw him over, since if Draco’s father has been doing his best to change his son’s sympathies, then Draco may not be inclined to release Harry from the Vow even if it turns out Dumbledore burned his mother for good reasons.
If Harry had taken an Unbreakable Vow, then even with the escape clause, he would probably be obligated to treat Dumbledore as his enemy right now, with no way to get Draco to release him from it.
There’s plenty of danger in an imperfectly thought out vow, even if you add a clause that someone can release you from it. Having someone who could release you from your vow isn’t much help if you’re already dead due to having been unable to act in self defense, for instance. Supposing you have to go down to the equivalent of a local police station to get released from a Vow, I would suggest that this probably retains most of the problems of being unable to break the vows at all.
If you think it doesn’t matter which, I have to suspect that you’re not thinking very hard of the implications of the MoR method.
Not everyone can be easily imperiused, nor is everyone capable of casting the spell, and it is probably impossible for a single person to keep a large number of people imperiused at once (canon doesn’t say whether it’s possible to imperius more than one person at a time, but provides no evidence that it is, and if it were, we could expect people like Voldemort to make extensive use of this.)
If the people being used as binders are not controlled perpetually, then we have a segment of the population which is being victimized in what many humans would regard as one of the most abhorrent ways possible, being routinely mind controlled into performing acts to which they would not consent of their own volition. These people, to put it lightly, do not like the segment of the population which is doing this to them. The people exploiting them need to make arrangements to keep them safely under control, as with chattel slavery. If such arrangements aren’t strong enough, they’re likely to engage in violent uprisings (although unlikely to succeed if and when they do, they’re less powerful and less well coordinated.)
Not only does the society have to invest labor and resources in keeping this segment of the population under wraps, any enemies who want to destabilize this society would do well to target this system. Kind of like the helot system, which was convenient for the Spartans in terms of productivity and military strength, except for the fact that any time they stayed away from home for too long, they were in danger of a revolt, and they had to make all the other city states they dealt with swear to support the system, since it would be so dangerous for them if anyone tried to destabilize it.
You can increase the security by keeping the people shut away somewhere, but then you lose the productivity of the people being used as binders.
Probably the most efficient method would be to force all the binders into unbreakable oaths not to rebel. You are, of course, still losing a significant portion of the total magical powers of the population by using unbreakable vows en-masse like this, and far from other countries seeing and wanting to copy this system, they’re liable to see it as either an exploitable weakness or a human rights violation, in which case this society could be facing trade sanctions, embargoes, or even war.
And of course, you still have the issue of how society undergoes the steps to reach this point.
Look at how effective those are in the real world. You have countries ignoring sanctions and embargoes because there’s a lot of money to be made that way. As for wars with large coalitions, you have the inevitable issues of members suspecting other members of not holding up their end of the war, or using the war to unfairly increase their power vis-a-vis the other members of the coalition.
Of course, it’s not hard to solve all these problems using unbreakable vows, but well. ;)
But you also have success stories of sanctions and embargos inflicting serious pain: just to name the ones I know of off the top of my head, Japan apparently felt itself forced into WWII by a US embargo of necessary supplies, North Korea remains a hellhole and has trouble selling stuff like it used to which forced it to come to the negotiating table over the bank embargos, and Iran is currently grappling with uncontrollable inflation (which may result in hyperinflation) which is attributed to the existing relatively mild sanctions.
You are right, Harry did not add enough layers of precautions. As such, he is in a position for it to screw him over. A truly well thought out Vow would have several escape clauses like this, to different people, and also a clause temporarily suspending the Vow while you go to have it removed if you truly believe that the situation warrants its removal.
Even that might not be enough, but remember: Harry thought his oath out in less than a minute. I thought out my additions in not much more. I imagine that if someone smart brainstormed this for a couple of hours, they would figure out even more elaborate and foolproof mechanisms. And once it gets going, there will be people who spend their whole careers on the question, refining the answer even further.
I think we have a very large difference of opinions here. Remember that in the real world, most societies with slaves lasted quite a long while. Add onto that several additional factors that are greatly to the advantage of the masters and not to the advantage of the slaves, and you see why I think there is not much of a difference.
Numbers. In the example you gave, of the Helot system, please not that there were seven times as many helots as non-helots. That’s right, seven times as many. In this system, you would not need even nearly a one-to one relationship. I would guess that there would be probably no more then one slave needed for every five or six people. This reduces their ability to revolt by so much that it is nearly impossible to compare it.
Magic. I would envision the slaves not having access to wands except when binding a Vow, giving access to wands to only a small fraction of the slave population at a time. Add on to that the fact the the slaves would not get much magical training, and that they have their magic reserves permanently depleted, and you will see that the masters have another insurmountable advantage.
The Imperius Curse. During the time when the slaves do have a wand, they would be under the Imperius Curse. This would not need more than one slave to be controlled by someone’s Imperius Curse at any one point. And remember, when you say that not everyone can be controlled by this curse: In canon, it was a huge surprise that Harry managed to throw it off so easily, the kind of thing you can only get if you are the hero of the story. Most people resistant to it are only that way due to a large amount of willpower built up over the years. And you can just execute people like that.
Unbreakable Vows. I don’t think these are needed, as the other factors cover the possibility of a revolt very well, but if needed, some slaves could be forced into an unbreakable vow not to rebel.
Remember that the concept of “human rights violations” are something very new, and they did not stop basically every nation that ever existed from keeping some sort sort of slaves. Remember that for thousands of years, there where, sadly, a lot of slaveholding and other human rights violations. And in no case did this result in the moral outrage from the surrounding countries, and certainly not to the point where they declared war or started trade embargos. (By the way, just thinking about it makes me very much appreciate the moral progress humanity has made in the last few hundred years. It truly is incredible if you think about it.)
We have discussed this a lot, and have provided a lot of explanation about how I do not really consider this an issue, and others have chimed in, adding their views on the subject. After all that, I believe we have provided many different angles of the explanation of why this is. If there is a specific part of it that you object to or want clarified, I am happy to discuss it further, but other than that I am not sure that there is more to discuss.
Most civilizations though, did have rules about how you were allowed to treat slaves. The treatment of slaves in antebellum America was worse than in Babylon circa 1700 BC. To get people whose rights are that disregarded by society, you generally need people who’re already regarded as an outgroup unworthy of basic respect.
If we’re positing that the legal system started in a society with a caste system containing something comparable to the Paraiahs, I could buy this as a natural progression. But what you’re suggesting entails rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves. I find it very strange that you think this is something that would happen so naturally as to need no explanation.
Do you think that nobody in this community could think up ways to restructure society that would be more practical than what we have now, without positing elements that don’t exist in real life? That nobody could come up with a better education system, or public works system, or so forth? If you think that the fact that a system would be advantageous is sufficient to explain its adoption, that’s a natural conclusion, but it’s one that I find awfully doubtful.
We have some very suboptimal systems in our world, not just for lack of some fantasy element that would make our job easier, but because humans are not naturally that good at optimizing.
Keep in mind also that these people who have their magic drained and their wands kept away, who’re not trusted to be willing contributors to society, are lost productivity from society’s perspective. If we say that the binders, plus the people who’re employed in overseeing them, add up to a fifth of the population, that’s a significant reduction in productivity. Probably not quite 20%, since there’s still some work they could do without magic, but considering how magic dependent wizarding society is, it would be pretty minimal compared to what ordinary citizens do.
In what ways, specifically, do you think this system would manage to more-than-account-for this loss of productivity?
You yourself provided an answer to this. It could be a natural progression from a caste system like that. I disagree that these slaves are treated worse than most civilizations through history have kept their slaves. While in the real world slaves had all sorts of horrible things happen to them, here the only bad thing that happens to them is that they don’t get to use magic. Throughout human history, most people lived perfectly fine and happily without magic. While yes, there would be the aspect of having to live in a society where everyone else gets to use magic and you don’t, I don’t think that just that means that this system gives the slaves “rather worse treatment than most civilizations have allowed with respect to their slaves”.
I think that you are comparing this to the wrong things. This is not just a better education system or a public works system, this is the absolute removal of a set problems that has plagued humanity since there was such a thing as humanity.
I would prefer to offer the analogy as something like this: This (Unbreakable Vow based) system is to the current system as democracy is to a dictatorship (or some other form of pre-democratic government). In the world, many societies found that democratic forms of government where just better than what they had, and so they changed. I am not saying that it was easy or instantaneous, and in many countries the change has not happened (yet). But democracy overwhelmed the entrenched systems (in some nations at least) simply because the people of these countries decided it was better at fulfilling their needs.
And I would say that the difference between a democracy and any other form of government is tiny in comparison to the difference between any form of government and this system. After all, this system is perfect at solving coordination problems, and democracy is not really a very good form of government, it just is better then all other forms of government that have been tried...
I think we already settled this. I gave a laundry list of problems that could easily be solved by this system of Unbreakable Vows, and of course that is just a small subset of the worlds coordination problems. On the other hand, with magic, everyone already basically has whatever they need. Remember how Harry described it as a “zeroth world country”? The wizarding world is already basically a post-scarcity economy. As such, thier is a lot less meaning to a drop in productivity.
But even without that, what proportion of wizardry jobs actually need magic to do? Most wizarding workers we have seen are shopkeepers, bureaucrats and the like, which don’t really need magic in their activities. And yes, there has to be someone to make the magic items, but even if we assume that there are indeed out of sight magical sweatshops filled with workers making magic items, it would be silly to assume they make up more than 80% of the population, would it not?
I doubt that “the only bad thing that happens to them is that they don’t get to use magic.” After all, these are people who’re regularly mind-controlled into sacrificing their power against their will. They’re kept from using magic because they’re not trusted not to be enemies of the system. Do you seriously expect that they’ll be well treated aside from the fact that they have no legal right to their own mental autonomy?
This sort of system could arise from a preexisting caste system with a sufficiently low caste already available, but if you’re positing something as a historical inevitability, then you can’t just handwave something like that away; it’s not as if this is something you could get in just any civilization. The Paraiah class itself isn’t nearly large enough to account for the proportion of the population we’re already discussing.
If you try to expand the sector of the population that’s sufficiently low on the totem pole as to receive no right to mental autonomy, then you could be looking at large scale class revolts before you have a chance to implement the vows on more than a small sector of the population.
Democracy was invented about 2500 years ago. It gave the ancient Greeks such a profound sociological advantage over other countries that they outcompeted all their local neighbors until, in short order, other countries were either adopting the system or being subsumed by them. Except, no, that didn’t happen, they were dominated by various autocracies, and democracy vanished from the region for more than a millennium. The Roman Empire expanded far beyond the reaches of the Roman Republic.
Democracy has become so successful in the last few centuries not because provides countries with an innate competitive advantage, but because a) in recent history, some of the most powerful countries in the world have made a deliberate effort to export or impose democracy, and b) it’s an appealing memeplex.
You can call this system “The absolute removal of a set of problems that has plagued humanity since there was a such thing as humanity,” but that doesn’t really say much about how useful it is. The eradication of sneezing would be the absolute removal of a problem that has plagued humanity since there was a such thing as humanity, but that doesn’t mean it would be tremendously helpful. The specific examples you gave for how such a system would be useful were
In a country like, say, Finland, these aren’t especially pressing problems. Yes, there’s crime, but the rates are pretty low. It’s not as if it subtracts even 10% of the country’s productivity. When a Finnish person pays their taxes for public works, they don’t have to worry that not enough people will pitch in and the work won’t be paid for. A Finnish person can safely assume that when they deal with a business, they’ll get the good or service they paid for. The chances of a coup in Finland are practically nil, and treason is not a significant danger.
These are problems that existing societies on earth have already managed to mostly solve. A better education system, where, for instance, every child of at least average intelligence comes out really understanding empiricism, rationality, and their own comparative advantage, is likely to be considerably more useful to such a society, without raising any tricky ethical issues.
Every character we’ve seen in the series uses magic in their daily lives. Even assuming that abilities such as being able to clean objects that would take several minutes of manual labor in a second with a spell, or organize a stockroom in seconds by waving a wand around, do not account for a large proportion of the productivity of the labor force, keep in mind that the magical abilities of the populace are largely responsible for the wizarding world being a “zeroth world country,” as Harry puts it. The longevity of the populace, and much of their medical technology, relies on the innate healing and magical reservoirs of the magically gifted population. You’re costing a significant proportion of the population about half their lifespans, in addition to a large portion of their quality of life (by losing their magical powers and having no right to mental autonomy, they’re forced way, way down the totem pole status-wise, as well as being unable to access many of the conveniences of the magical population,) and a significant part of their productivity, in exchange for solving problems that other societies on earth have already managed to mostly solve.
OK. I think our main disagreement is simply that we have different notions of how advantageous such a system actually is, and if it is advantageous enough to overcome the disadvantages of having a slave system. You seem skeptical that this system really is that broken. I think it is.
The list I gave was a list of the small scale social problems that would be directly resolved, as that was what you asked for. Yes, those are ones which modern government has mostly solved, but there are many more. The Unbreakable Vow solves one of the key parts of human interaction. It’s the cure to many human problems.
As a concrete larger scale example, see for instance the financial crash that happened in 2008. Now I don’t claim to know all the myriad reasons that caused it, but from what I hear of how people have been describing how it happened, it was exactly the sort of problem that could have been solved with Unbreakable Vows. (And it obviously was not solvable even by the most modern form of government, as it did happen, despite modern governments existing.)
Or if you would prefer a fictional example: What if Peter Pettigrew had made an Unbreakable Vow not to betray the Potters? That would utterly have changed the story of the Harry Potter books, and in a way that could not be replicated by any form of government.
You can see cases like these all the time on various scales if you look, and government does not seem to be solving them. (That is not to say that government is useless, government solves some of them, but not all of them.)
But here I will ask you this question: Lets assume that we are in canon Harry Potter where the Unbreakable Vow is not nerfed. There is no cost to making a Vow, and no need for slaves. In this scenario, do you think that civilization would form in a system using the Unbreakable Vow in the ways I described? If not, why did EY nerf the Unbreakable Vow in HPMOR so much? If yes, look at the advantages such a system brings, and ask if those advantages are really outweighed by the disadvantages of having a slave system. (Remembering that most civilization through history have had some sort of slave system or another, and they did quite well in spite of that, so it cannot be that much of a disadvantage.)
It could, in theory, have been prevented with unbreakable vows. It could also have been prevented with laws. The trouble was not that if we designed laws to prevent it, they wouldn’t have been followed, or that nobody had any idea what sort of laws would have been necessary, but that the people who saw the problem in advance and called for those sorts of laws were in the minority, and even after the fact a lot of people still aren’t on board with the sorts of laws that would have prevented it, because they believe it would stifle business interests, because of an ideological Regulation Bad mindset, or a combination of those.
Just because Unbreakable Vows could solve a problem, doesn’t mean they would. We can solve all sorts of problems with government, but don’t, because we’re not that good at using government. You seem to assume that we would default to using Unbreakable Vows perfectly, and I see that as a highly burdensome component of your assertions that requires a lot of evidence.
I think civilization would make extensive use of Unbreakable Vows, and it would have a significant effect. It could, as you point out, prevent events such as Pettigrew betraying the Potters (unless he’d already made a Vow to Voldemort before then, in which case he’d probably have been caught as soon as they tried to put a conflicting Vow on him,) and that sort of thing could completely mangle the story.
But I don’t think it would result in perfect coordination. I think the laws would in many cases continue to be poorly thought out and impractical, and the system would continue to be bad at quickly changing laws that proved to be ineffective for the purposes for which they were supposedly designed. Politics would continue to be influenced by people more driven by tribal ideology than by evidence of what makes their countries better off.
I think the core of these problems is not a lack of a sufficiently powerful enforcement mechanism on agreements, but that the sanity waterline simply isn’t very high.
Perhaps. I see the way which you are looking at it, and while I don’t agree, I want to say that I think I understand why you look at it this way.
I want to make the point that Unbreakable Vows are way better than laws in this form of situation. A law is something that is hard to get perfect, is costly to implement, and in general would cause the bad effects that you listed. On the other hand, Unbreakable Vows are not regulations, they would be the companies and people themselves agreeing to self-regulate, and while this might not be enforceable through normal contract law, it is with Unbreakable Vows. (They would arrange and agree to the Unbreakable Vows because they themselves do not want a crash. The companies and people involved did not want the crash after all...)
One might say though that no one predicted the crash upfront, so why would they have made the Unbreakable Vows? This is a valid point, and is perhaps the great weakness of the system. But all in all it is not insurmountable, as I think that in principle these things are predictable, (That is to say they are not truly random) and with the right incentives, people will choose to prepare for everything,
So the big question is how prevalent and powerful the effects would be. I think this boils down in essence to the most fundamental political divide. A libertarian would say that an all-powerful contract enforcement mechanism would obliviate the need for a government at all, as after all that is what a government really boils down to in a libertarian view, and Unbreakable Vows just do that better. On the other hand, someone who is more conservative/statist would say that while it would have a significant effect on the contract system, the government does do things that don’t boil down to just enforcing contracts (from that viewpoint), and so there would still be a need for a government, which would continue in much the way governments do nowadays.
So I think that seems to be our main difference. You are said :
While on the other hand I am saying that there would be no such thing as politics or government as we know it in this situation, as with a perfect contract enforcement mechanism, they are completely unnecessary, and would be abandoned.
This isn’t a fact that distinguishes a law from a contract. Problems of interpretation are just as big an issue in contract litigation as in legal compliance.
True, but the main difference is one of choice: You get to choose what contracts you sign, but not what laws you follow. If you get screwed by a misinterpreted contract, well that’s sad, but you are partially responsible for it, as you can view what happened as a slip in your foresight, you made a mistake, didn’t plan for this eventuality, and you paid the price for that slip-up.
On the other hand, if it’s a law, some dolt in wherever the capital of your country is made the mistake, but you have to suffer the consequences. You see the difference? If someone makes a bad choice and hurts themselves, it is sad, and they learn for next time, but it is an accepted basic moral fact that ultimately people should be able to make their own choices, for good or ill.
Maybe it’s just me being too free market/libertarian, but it feels a lot sadder when someone screws something up for others then if that person makes a mistake that only hurts themselves.
I’m not trying to criticize your libertarian argument—I’m actually fairly sympathetic to those types of policy arguments. It’s just that interpretive difficulty isn’t a difference between statute and contract.
Writing text with a clear and unambiguous meaning is hard, even if one desires to write clearly. And the causes of interpretive difficulties are strongly parallel:
differing policy preferences of individual legislators vs. different economic incentives of contract counter-parties.
issues can be unanticipated by all parties, which means the outcome of a dispute is essentially random (from an ex ante perspective).
In short, it’s just a fact about language that your choices don’t really affect the clarity of your legal obligations (either statutory or contractual). The deadweight loss of regulation isn’t a result of unclear regulation—even the clearest distortion of the market outcome costs some surplus value from the transaction.
Thank you for pointing out this aspect. It is a valid argument, and so the question is, how do you phrase it to avoid that. (A similar point was also made by Eugine_Nier) In a certain sense, this is the exact same problem as the one of FAI. (Which we all know is very hard.) Upon reflection, I don’t think the Unbreakable Vow is so strict in its interpretation of Vows, because if it were, safe Unbreakable Vows at all would be next to impossible. We do see Unbreakable Vows happening in the story though, so that is evidence for magic being slightly flexible in its interpretation of Vows.
Of course, magic does not exist in real life, and so we cannot do experiments on it to see how “strict” and literal the Unbreakable Vow is, so we cannot fully tell if such a system would actually work or not. It just depends on the author, really.
But if Unbreakable Vows are loose enough to be used the way they are both in canon and in HPMOR without screwing the participants over, I think it probably is good enough to work in our scenario, at least if we make sure to use very user-dependent wording. In other words, I think that a Vow something like ” I vow that I under a reasonable human interpretation of it” would probably be OK. (Remember in canon and HPMOR we see people making such Vows without the last clause, and the Vows don’t seem to screw them over, so if we are extra careful and add on extra clauses like that, it seems likely that it could work.)
But, of course, what we really want to do before putting these Vows into mass production is to do some experiments, see how they actually work in practice, see if they are safe. Sadly, they do not exist in real life, so this question might never be solved.
Um . . . I think you are still misunderstanding my objection. From the same sentence as the point I’m criticizing:
Those are good points in favor of a libertarian perspective on public policy. Interpretive difficulties don’t belong on that list. To quote Sesame Street, one thing on your list just isn’t like the others.
OK. I might be misunderstanding you. I thought you were saying that a problem with Unbreakable Vows is that they would go by a strict, literal, genie-like interpretation of whatever you say, which would cause bad results. But I might just have been thinking of that because Desrtopa raised an argument of that type a couple of posts ago. If that is not your objection, feel free to restate it in a clearer way. But ultimately, I do suspect we are mostly in agreement, and that there is no particularly major difference between our opinions.
Sure. I’m saying that it is extremely difficult to reduce intended outcome to words.
Both statutes and contracts are attempts to reduce intention to words, and they have a roughly equivalent failure rate. Thus, problems arising from mismatch of word and intent (i.e. interpretive problems) are not a reason to prefer contracts over statutes.
Well, I suppose the question is how the unbreakable-vow magic interprets it.
A society based on contracts based entirely on unbreakable wows would kill far too many people, or alternatively, would require fairly insane levels of OCD checking that no contract conflicts with any other. And, as a practical matter, asking people to submit to lethal enforcement of employment contracts, and other minor business is just not going to fly. A multi-million-galleon deal? Sure. Having someone fix your plumbing… eh. No.
On the other hand, the government would be warped completely out of recognition. Because oaths of office would be unbreakable, and based on a long tradition of very careful wording. So you get government by the utterly incorruptible oath bound. Which would look nothing like any government that has ever existed. Because it would have perfect trust from the citizenry, virtually no agency problems, and no need for any checks or balances other than the oaths whatsoever.
Wait, is the Unbreakable Vow really unbreakable, or does it just kill you when you break it? I thought it was the first.
The latter
That’s true in canon, yes, but this
reads to me more like a sort of permanent, irresistible Imperius. I can see it could be meant the other way, though.
Your HPMoR-trained spellchecker has led you wrong, friend.
The Oxford English Dictionary on ‘obliviate’ (v.):
3 cited examples similar to ygert’s usage. Go get yourself a real dictionary before you presume to correct other people.
’This indeed a word, and it’s not impossible that it might be what ygert intended. But I think it’s much more likely that it was meant to be “obviate”.
Huh. My copy of the OED agrees with Merriam-Webster (and everything I can find online) that there’s no real word between “obliterative” and “oblivion”. What edition are you referencing?
Anyway, “obviate the need for” is such a common phrasing that I don’t feel terribly unjustified in my presumption. I suppose that’s for ygert to decide, though.
I am using the Windows Second Edition release from 2009. Screenshot of the ‘obliviate’ entry I was quoting, which certainly does not say anything about it not existing prior to Rowling: http://i.imgur.com/PFADb.png
Now I’m not sure if you’re serious. The last quote is from the mid-1800s, and the usage is synonymous with “forget” so it wouldn’t make sense in ygert’s context anyway.
So? I use words as rare as that all the time, and it could be an independent invention.
Committing government to oblivion as useless and a waste fits in nicely with quotes 2 and 3.
So to sum up: the word ‘obliviate’ exists before Rowling and you were wrong about it not being a real world; then, you were wrong about it not being in the OED; now, you are wrong that it does not fit the usage; and you are still trying to correct me!
You well deserve your username—the first half anyway.
How does this distinguish an Unbreakable Vow from a law? If the companies had foreseen the effects of their business practices, they would have wanted a law against them, and adhered to the law so that they could avoid the crash. How do Unbreakable Vows solve the problem of the companies not acknowledging the danger of their practices and thus not wanting them to be regulated?
People did predict the crash up front in real life. It wasn’t enough for people to pass laws to prevent it. In fact, a system of Unbreakable Vows as you describe could quite easily be harder to put in place than a law. A law can be passed if only the legislators are convinced it’s a good idea, but the system of vows requires the businesspeople to be convinced it’s a good idea.
I thought you had in mind a system where a body passes laws, and the whole population takes vows to obey all those laws. This would solve issues of noncompliance, but not issues of stupid laws. I suspect that the system you’re recommending would be less well coordinated than what we already have, because the abundance of historical evidence suggests that people tend to be very bad at choosing when and how to self regulate, and it’s not as if we don’t have mechanisms in real life that people could use to prevent most defection.
It seems like your position is “If we had a mechanism to prevent all defection, people would become smart about self regulating.” I think that’s really, really unlikely.
No. False. Let’s model it in game theory terms. There are a number of players (companies) and each one chooses to act responsibly or not. If all or most players act responsibly, they all reap the benefits of no crash. If some act irresponsibly, they reap a greater benefit. But if a high enough proportion of companies act irresponsibly, there is a crash and everybody loses. (This kind of problem is a very common type of game theory problem, which has been analysed a lot. (It’s actually a close relative of the Prisoner’s Dilemma.)) The Nash equilibrium of this game is everyone defecting and acting irresponsibly, which leads to a bad result that no one wants, and everyone is unhappy.
So how do we solve it, we can make laws which give a negative incentive to acting irresponsibly, and thus move the equilibrium of the game. (And of course the players do want that, as it simply gives them a better outcome from the game.) And that’s fine, it sometimes works, but some other times the law’s negative incentives don’t work out, and the equilibrium is everyone acting irresponsibly again. This is because the law cannot perfectly control what people do, as one can always break the law, and often get away with it.
An Unbreakable Vow is unbreakable though, and so rather then have government regulations, which are clumsy and sometimes don’t work, if the companies have that much contractual power, that is they can make contracts that are actually and completely unbreakable… One of the simplest solutions in game theory to problems of this type is that you just allow the agents to precommit to their strategies.
As you can see now, this is not the system I had in mind at all. Remember, what is the point of governments? To enforce the kind of thing that the Unbreakable Vows enforce much better. That is why in this scenario I very much doubt there would be any sort of government as we know it at all.
Remember, actually people are quite good at self regulating. In a roundabout way, of course, by establishing governments and empowering them to regulate. That whole roundabout method of having social contracts enforced by a government seems rather roundabout and convoluted if it could be bypassed and the contracts enforced directly by magic.
But if breaking the law and getting away with it is unlikely, then the rational actors won’t try. What the companies would have wanted, had they been rational good predictors, was a well enforced law which heavily punished defection. This way they would all have had higher expected utility than the scenario in which there was no law.
But they did not push for this. In fact, all the lobbying action was in the other direction. The business practices that resulted in the crash were previously illegal. If you want to make a convincing case that they would have done better in a system with an unbreakable enforcement mechanism, you’ve got to demonstrate that in spite of appearances, an adequate enforcement mechanism, rather than adequate predictive power and rationality, was what was missing.
Government doesn’t just provide people with an enforcement mechanism for coordination problems, it also provides a workaround for lack of information, and ideally for irrationality, in coordination problems.
Suppose that chemical A which is used in a manufacturing process is highly toxic, and that chemical gets into the environment in the course of the process, and causes a lot of harm to people and wildlife. 0.2% of the population (those who understand the chemistry and have read the relevant studies) know this, and of those, all who are not employed by the manufacturing company agree that the chemical should not be used in that manufacturing process. The other 99.8% has no opinion. If the population has perfect enforcement for agreements, but no oversight body, and all agreements are worked out on an individual basis, then the manufacturing company will continue using the chemical, affecting everyone, not just the people who know enough to care. If there is an oversight body charged with creating rules for the population whose job it is to pass rules that are in the public’s interests, whether or not the public knows enough to care about them, the people who know about the effects of the chemical can go to the oversight body and say “as you can see, the evidence favors this chemical being harmful, and we all agree you should make a rule against using it,” and the oversight body can look at the evidence and pass the rule. By having a body whose full time job it is to look at issues that potentially warrant the creation of rules, judge evidence, and determine which rules would be good to pass, the population as a whole can review more issues which potentially impact the whole society, at less opportunity cost to the whole population. If everyone took the time to research every issue that might be worth making a rule about, they wouldn’t have time to do anything else.
The “irrational choices” and “lack of information” sections of Yvain’s Non-Libertarian FAQ are good reading on this topic.
Of course a well enforced law that heavily punished defection would be just as good as an Unbreakable Vow, but in a certain sense that’s my point. The best case scenario in the case of a law (that is, of the law being well enforced and with harsh penalties) is the default scenario if you are using Unbreakable Vows.
This is what I was saying earlier, the main difference between our points of views is one of the most basic political questions, of what viewpoint on the libertarian-statist axis you accept. In other words, how much of government should be workarounds for that sort of thing.
You know what, I honestly don’t know the real answer to that question. It is one of the biggest questions of that type, and so it is fitting not to know the exact answer to it. That said, I do slightly tend toward taking a more libertarian point of view. I do understand that what you said is in fact one of the main points against libertarianism and toward more government intervention. All in all, the answer is far from obvious, and here is not the best place to get into a big discussion about it.
So, all in all, I think that this discussion is a result of a much lower level and more subtle disagreement. Maybe I am being too idealistic and putting too much faith in human beings, and maybe you are being too cynical and putting too much faith in governments. In practice, the only way to see if this system works is to try it out, which is (sadly?) impossible seeing as the unbreakable Vow does not exist in the real world.