You are right there is too much to reply to at once, if possible lets keep the conversation a little more narrow from this point on or we are less likely to get any where.
Actually, PUAs are far more likely to display less relationship interest than they truly have, rather than more.
So this seems to fall under the category of deceptive. The PUA undertakes actions to make the other person hold a false belief for the PUA’s benefit.
Actually, PUAs are far more likely to display less relationship interest than they truly have, rather than more.
So this seems to fall under the category of deceptive. The PUA undertakes actions to make the other person hold a false belief for the PUA’s benefit.
Ha! You expected me to be only interested in a one night stand because I didn’t act like an adoring little puppy on the first date. Now, since the sex was so great and we have awesome physical chemistry and emotional rapport I will call you up another time and see if you want to date again and maybe you will have to say no. You have fallen right into my trap. Mwaha. Mwahahaha!
Actually, PUAs are far more likely to display less relationship interest than they truly have, rather than more.
Davorak replied:
So this seems to fall under the category of deceptive. The PUA undertakes actions to make the other person hold a false belief for the PUA’s benefit.
I guess you could call it deceptive (maybe). If so, it’s an entirely justified and healthy sort of deception, so I have trouble labeling it “manipulation” due to the negative connotations of that word.
Many people hide their full romantic interest early in dating, because they don’t want to reveal it until they think the other person has a good chance of reciprocating. Otherwise, they risk looking emotionally needy and clingy. PUAs aren’t the only ones to worry about looking “clingy”; lots of heterosexual women have that exact same worry.
The fact is, early in dating, the other person does not have the right to expect you spontaneously reveal your full romantic interest when they haven’t asked. People who are dating often develop feelings on a different time-table. If there was some sort of moral obligation to immediately reveal the full extent of your feelings, it would be too easy to prematurely ruin many potential relationships by forcing the DTR talk too soon (DTR = Defining The Relationship).
The counter-intuitive result is that even if you do have relationship interest, sometimes the best way to get into a relationship is to wait to show it. The dominant strategy is to limit the amount of romantic interest shown early in dating. Showing too little can be easier to recover from than showing too much too soon.
So is hiding relationship interest a “lie of omission”? The omission is only a lie if it would deceive someone of truth. Hiding relationship interest only deceives someone if they assume that displayed level of interest is your true level of interest. But if they don’t make that assumption in the first place, then they won’t be deceived. And many experienced daters will know that people they are dating might have good reasons to try and avoid signaling clinginess.
Broadcasting false romantic interest is much more likely to be harmful than failing to display true romantic interest. If you broadcast too much, the other person will often get uncomfortable and flat out dump you (especially women with men, in my view). If you broadcast too little, then the other person isn’t forced to dump you. They can show their own romantic interest, at which point it becomes safe for you to reciprocate. Or they can just come out and ask your feelings via a DTR, giving you an opportunity to articulate your true level of romantic interest.
Yes, hiding romantic interest has the potential to deceive someone who isn’t savvy about the game-theoretic incentives on you to avoid showing it. Directing lying to someone who asks by saying that you don’t have romantic interest that you actually do have would definitely be deceptive (but even then, there might be a justification if you feel that the DTR is the wrong place to reveal your romantic interest). If someone directly discloses that they don’t have romantic interest, and doesn’t want to hook up with someone who does, and you hide your romantic interest while hooking up with them, that would be deceptive.
Yet outside these cases, limiting display of “true” romantic feelings is simply a commonplace and healthy relationship strategy for people of both genders. It benefits PUA who are looking for relationships, yes (PUAs who aren’t would have no need to use it), but it also potentially benefits women who end up wanting relationships with them. I don’t think avoidance of the appearance of clinginess early in dating deserves to be called “manipulation,” nor need it be deceptive, and I don’t think it’s what people are thinking of who accuse PUAs of being manipulative.
Yes, hiding romantic interest has the potential to deceive someone who isn’t savvy about the game-theoretic incentives on you to avoid showing it. Directing lying to someone who asks by saying that you don’t have romantic interest that you actually do have would definitely be deceptive (but even then, there might be a justification if you feel that the DTR is the wrong place to reveal your romantic interest).
And in such cases directly lying tends to be a dominated strategy. A simple “I don’t do Defining The Relationships on a second date.” shows stronger personal boundaries, self awareness and a sense for the appropriate time for self disclosure.
An exception (a game where non-disclosure does not dominate explicitly lying about relationship preference) is possibly with particularly high status and gender typical women who operate at a level where verbal symbols used for purposes that are more or less divorced from application to mundane reality. In that case a “I’m not interested in a relationship” or “we’re not going to have sex” can prompt an instinctive contrariness and an inclination to challenge your declaration.
Interpreting that level of signalling as ‘deception’ would be as absurd as interpreting a metaphor literally and dismissing a poem as a lie. It just isn’t supposed to be a correct factual description.
You are right there is too much to reply to at once, if possible lets keep the conversation a little more narrow from this point on or we are less likely to get any where.
So this seems to fall under the category of deceptive. The PUA undertakes actions to make the other person hold a false belief for the PUA’s benefit.
Ha! You expected me to be only interested in a one night stand because I didn’t act like an adoring little puppy on the first date. Now, since the sex was so great and we have awesome physical chemistry and emotional rapport I will call you up another time and see if you want to date again and maybe you will have to say no. You have fallen right into my trap. Mwaha. Mwahahaha!
I said:
Davorak replied:
I guess you could call it deceptive (maybe). If so, it’s an entirely justified and healthy sort of deception, so I have trouble labeling it “manipulation” due to the negative connotations of that word.
Many people hide their full romantic interest early in dating, because they don’t want to reveal it until they think the other person has a good chance of reciprocating. Otherwise, they risk looking emotionally needy and clingy. PUAs aren’t the only ones to worry about looking “clingy”; lots of heterosexual women have that exact same worry.
The fact is, early in dating, the other person does not have the right to expect you spontaneously reveal your full romantic interest when they haven’t asked. People who are dating often develop feelings on a different time-table. If there was some sort of moral obligation to immediately reveal the full extent of your feelings, it would be too easy to prematurely ruin many potential relationships by forcing the DTR talk too soon (DTR = Defining The Relationship).
The counter-intuitive result is that even if you do have relationship interest, sometimes the best way to get into a relationship is to wait to show it. The dominant strategy is to limit the amount of romantic interest shown early in dating. Showing too little can be easier to recover from than showing too much too soon.
So is hiding relationship interest a “lie of omission”? The omission is only a lie if it would deceive someone of truth. Hiding relationship interest only deceives someone if they assume that displayed level of interest is your true level of interest. But if they don’t make that assumption in the first place, then they won’t be deceived. And many experienced daters will know that people they are dating might have good reasons to try and avoid signaling clinginess.
Broadcasting false romantic interest is much more likely to be harmful than failing to display true romantic interest. If you broadcast too much, the other person will often get uncomfortable and flat out dump you (especially women with men, in my view). If you broadcast too little, then the other person isn’t forced to dump you. They can show their own romantic interest, at which point it becomes safe for you to reciprocate. Or they can just come out and ask your feelings via a DTR, giving you an opportunity to articulate your true level of romantic interest.
Yes, hiding romantic interest has the potential to deceive someone who isn’t savvy about the game-theoretic incentives on you to avoid showing it. Directing lying to someone who asks by saying that you don’t have romantic interest that you actually do have would definitely be deceptive (but even then, there might be a justification if you feel that the DTR is the wrong place to reveal your romantic interest). If someone directly discloses that they don’t have romantic interest, and doesn’t want to hook up with someone who does, and you hide your romantic interest while hooking up with them, that would be deceptive.
Yet outside these cases, limiting display of “true” romantic feelings is simply a commonplace and healthy relationship strategy for people of both genders. It benefits PUA who are looking for relationships, yes (PUAs who aren’t would have no need to use it), but it also potentially benefits women who end up wanting relationships with them. I don’t think avoidance of the appearance of clinginess early in dating deserves to be called “manipulation,” nor need it be deceptive, and I don’t think it’s what people are thinking of who accuse PUAs of being manipulative.
And in such cases directly lying tends to be a dominated strategy. A simple “I don’t do Defining The Relationships on a second date.” shows stronger personal boundaries, self awareness and a sense for the appropriate time for self disclosure.
An exception (a game where non-disclosure does not dominate explicitly lying about relationship preference) is possibly with particularly high status and gender typical women who operate at a level where verbal symbols used for purposes that are more or less divorced from application to mundane reality. In that case a “I’m not interested in a relationship” or “we’re not going to have sex” can prompt an instinctive contrariness and an inclination to challenge your declaration.
Interpreting that level of signalling as ‘deception’ would be as absurd as interpreting a metaphor literally and dismissing a poem as a lie. It just isn’t supposed to be a correct factual description.