Great post. I loved your approach with your husband and think that in general, most people would be better off following it (especially women).
[PUA] just seems like an incredibly alienating view of women. I know there’s some lip-service to the idea of individual variation, but for the most part the PUA strategies encourage guys to see women almost like androids, all obeying the same script.
Your objection to PUA stuff is based on a certain view of PUA I don’t think is accurate. In fact, one of the most helpful things to me about PUA was the idea that each person has an individual set of “attraction switches” and it’s just a matter of finding them. This freed me up a lot.
And from what I’ve seen of measurable differences between men and women, they exist as averages over large groups, but they are dwarfed by individual variances.
I don’t really think this is an issue of the differences between men and women. In fact, I think most of the PUA ideas apply equally well to men and women, because they’re observations on human psychology. PUA gets applied mostly to women because it’s mostly men who go after women, not because women are so different than men. The relevant distinction here is “friends” vs. “people you are attracted to and want to go after”—a lot of PUA advice consists of distinguishing behaviors for these two categories—not men vs. women.
And ultimately I worry about the damage that the PUA mindset does to relations between men and women as human beings—lord knows, reading Roissy’s blog doesn’t leave me with a lot of hope for the species.
I’m tempted to say “but Roissy is an idiot who has nothing to do with PUA!” However, I’m wary of committing the One True Scotsmen fallacy, and I suppose I have to admit that there is a portion of the PUA blogosphere that is misogynistic. I don’t think that his blog is representative of most of the valuable stuff in the PUA community, and in fact his blog has been described as more of a “men going their own way” blog.
Your objection to PUA stuff is based on a certain view of PUA I don’t think is accurate. In fact, one of the most helpful things to me about PUA was the idea that each person has an individual set of “attraction switches” and it’s just a matter of finding them. This freed me up a lot.
Can you point me to a page that espouses that view? I googled for it and found this: http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/In_the_Middle/EC/218.html—but it seems the opposite of what you’re saying, as it’s a list of “attraction switches” that will supposedly work for “most women.” Now granted, they’re all generically good things (“TRUST” and “CONFIDENCE” and “CHEMISTRY” are all fine things in a relationship, sure) but there’s no mention of individual variation or any conception that different women may be looking for different things. Instead, the message is: flip these switches and “she’s really going to be into you”! And then at the end the author writes “I’d love to see another list: of the switches to flip for a ONS [One Night Stand] -- the switches that over-ride the social programming and make her crave that adventure and abandon. ” Like I said, it’s women as androids. Flip the switches, override the programming, badda bing badda boom.
It just seems like a juvenile fantasy—women as sex robots, available to anyone who knows the override code. Not the kind of outlook that’s actually going help a lonely guy make a genuine connection with a woman.
Well, this kind of systematizing and abstraction is really helpful when you don’t know what to do or how to start a relationship. And it’s useful to have some defaults that work pretty well, most of the time, before you get to know someone.
I actually think that seeing women as acting based on a specific pattern, that has reasons behind it and that can be understood with time and practice, rather than a baffling and impenetrable mystery, is exactly what will help a lonely guy make a genuine connection.
Can you point me to a page that espouses that view?
there’s no mention of individual variation or any conception that different women may be looking for different things.
I got the insight that everyone has different attraction switches from a conversation with someone, not a web page, and I’m not as familiar with what material is available online. However, HughRistik wrote twocomments about this topic with a few links to pages that might be relevant.
Your point of view has a lot in common with the indignation of theists that say the universe cannot be made of “cold numbers” or somesuch. As someone who’s had a lot of field practice and done a lot of homework, I can say this: the mating behavior of humans (men and women alike) is frighteningly predictable if you know the right variables to look at. Humans aren’t nearly as different as they think they are. Getting offended by this is like getting offended by the theory of relativity. Sure you can, but it will only get you so far.
I also just want to remark that, the first time I saw this happen on Less Wrong—where two people were getting into a discussion of escalating snarkiness, until one of them apologized and retracted a remark—I just about fell out of my chair. I mean, people don’t do that on the Internet! It actually clinched my interest in this forum and the material here.
Great post. I loved your approach with your husband and think that in general, most people would be better off following it (especially women).
Your objection to PUA stuff is based on a certain view of PUA I don’t think is accurate. In fact, one of the most helpful things to me about PUA was the idea that each person has an individual set of “attraction switches” and it’s just a matter of finding them. This freed me up a lot.
I don’t really think this is an issue of the differences between men and women. In fact, I think most of the PUA ideas apply equally well to men and women, because they’re observations on human psychology. PUA gets applied mostly to women because it’s mostly men who go after women, not because women are so different than men. The relevant distinction here is “friends” vs. “people you are attracted to and want to go after”—a lot of PUA advice consists of distinguishing behaviors for these two categories—not men vs. women.
I’m tempted to say “but Roissy is an idiot who has nothing to do with PUA!” However, I’m wary of committing the One True Scotsmen fallacy, and I suppose I have to admit that there is a portion of the PUA blogosphere that is misogynistic. I don’t think that his blog is representative of most of the valuable stuff in the PUA community, and in fact his blog has been described as more of a “men going their own way” blog.
Can you point me to a page that espouses that view? I googled for it and found this: http://www.seductionbase.com/seduction/cat/In_the_Middle/EC/218.html—but it seems the opposite of what you’re saying, as it’s a list of “attraction switches” that will supposedly work for “most women.” Now granted, they’re all generically good things (“TRUST” and “CONFIDENCE” and “CHEMISTRY” are all fine things in a relationship, sure) but there’s no mention of individual variation or any conception that different women may be looking for different things. Instead, the message is: flip these switches and “she’s really going to be into you”! And then at the end the author writes “I’d love to see another list: of the switches to flip for a ONS [One Night Stand] -- the switches that over-ride the social programming and make her crave that adventure and abandon. ” Like I said, it’s women as androids. Flip the switches, override the programming, badda bing badda boom.
It just seems like a juvenile fantasy—women as sex robots, available to anyone who knows the override code. Not the kind of outlook that’s actually going help a lonely guy make a genuine connection with a woman.
Well, this kind of systematizing and abstraction is really helpful when you don’t know what to do or how to start a relationship. And it’s useful to have some defaults that work pretty well, most of the time, before you get to know someone.
I actually think that seeing women as acting based on a specific pattern, that has reasons behind it and that can be understood with time and practice, rather than a baffling and impenetrable mystery, is exactly what will help a lonely guy make a genuine connection.
I got the insight that everyone has different attraction switches from a conversation with someone, not a web page, and I’m not as familiar with what material is available online. However, HughRistik wrote two comments about this topic with a few links to pages that might be relevant.
Why would a lonely guy want that? Aren’t you thinking of what a woman would want, instead?
Your point of view has a lot in common with the indignation of theists that say the universe cannot be made of “cold numbers” or somesuch. As someone who’s had a lot of field practice and done a lot of homework, I can say this: the mating behavior of humans (men and women alike) is frighteningly predictable if you know the right variables to look at. Humans aren’t nearly as different as they think they are. Getting offended by this is like getting offended by the theory of relativity. Sure you can, but it will only get you so far.
You put the same kind of confidence in PUA as you do in the theory of relativity? Really?
My experience leads me to different conclusions, yes.
Sorry. My comment wasn’t very thought out, so I deleted it immediately after posting. I’d rather not be having this argument here and now.
No problem. I deleted my reply to it as well.
I also just want to remark that, the first time I saw this happen on Less Wrong—where two people were getting into a discussion of escalating snarkiness, until one of them apologized and retracted a remark—I just about fell out of my chair. I mean, people don’t do that on the Internet! It actually clinched my interest in this forum and the material here.
Awesome. There is hope :)
This bodes well for the intended purpose of this site.