NOTE: I made a mistake in this analysis due to a brain fart. I fixed it and reposted it.
That’s correct. I’m not particularly interested in defending any particular method, just the notion that pickup in general can be lead many guys to greater success.
I agree that there is plenty of dishonesty in workshops, based on reviews I’ve heard. I’m not so confident that the money is good. Let’s do a little accounting (based on eyeballing a few well-known programs):
Typical price of weekend bootcamp: $2000
Student teacher ratio: 2-3 students to 1 teacher
Time: 8 hours per day, total: 24 hours. 8 hours field instruction and demonstration, and the rest would be seminars
Assuming a 3:1 student teacher ratio, each instructor would pull in $6000 for the bootcamp. $6000 / 24 hours work = $250/hour. Except we need to count the plane flight. ($6000 - $200 ticket) / (24 + 4 hour flight) = $207/hr.
That might seem like a good wage, but remember that PUAs can only run bootcamps on weekends. $207/hr * 50 weekends a year = $10,350/year. Even if you jack up the bootcamp rates to $3k (which some companies do), that’s still just $15k a year per instructor.
Dance instructions can make $40k/year in metropolitan areas working multiple days a week. Accomplished dance instructors can run pricey workshops. While probably not as expensive as pickup workshops, they can have a higher student:teacher ratio. Based on a dance workshop I found in my area, guessing at a student:teacher ratio, gives the following:
$200 per person * 8:1 student:teacher ratio / 12 hours over two days = $133/hr… and the instructors don’t have to travel. With a 10:1 student:teacher ratio, it’s about $166/hr.
Pickup instructors obviously can’t make much from bootcamps. Bootcamps just aren’t scalable. You can only work on the weekend, and you have to be doing marketing and lead generation during the week. PUA gurus must make most of their money from ebooks and DVDs, unless they can do some pricier form of coaching. (Of course, dance instructors who are entrepreneurially minded will have instructional DVDs, too.) Or PUA instructors have day jobs during the week, which burns time for building their pickup business.
Running pickup workshops is clearly not a very profitable business. For teaching students live, it’s not obvious by how much pickup instructors out-earn instructors in the performing arts… if at all. Doing in-field instruction is also extremely grueling, and live demonstrations are high pressure. Pickup instructors must demonstrate the techniques every weekend even when jetlagged, sick, or hoarse from shouting. On top of that, their work is stigmatized.
If anything, lack of quality of pickup instruction is more likely because PUA gurus are poorly compensated, rather than because they are well-compensated.
That’s correct. I’m not particularly interested in defending any particular method, just the notion that pickup in general can be lead many guys to greater success.
I agree that there is plenty of dishonesty in workshops, based on reviews I’ve heard. I’m not so confident that the money is good. Let’s do a little accounting (based on eyeballing a few well-known programs):
Typical price of weekend bootcamp: $2000
Student teacher ratio: 2-3 students to 1 teacher
Time: 8 hours per day, total: 24 hours. 8 hours field instruction and demonstration, and the rest would be seminars
Assuming a 3:1 student teacher ratio, each instructor would pull in $6000 for the bootcamp. $6000 / 24 hours work = $250/hour. Except we need to count the plane flight. ($6000 - $200 ticket) / (24 + 4 hour flight) = $207/hr.
PUAs can only run bootcamps on weekends. $5800 * 50 weekends a year = $290,000/year. However, you are traveling virtually every weekend, and you need a marketing machine to fill seats in your destinations in front of you. And you will have no life. Looking at an actual bootcamp schedule, it seems that the workshops are $3k and the lead instructors are only working 5-19 weeks over half a year = 10-38 weeks a year.
$3k 3 students - $300 airfare = $8700 a bootcamp 25 bootcamps a year = $217,500. This figure is a lot more optimistic than my previous flawed analysis.
Dance instructors can make $40k/year in metropolitan areas working multiple days a week, but it might not be fair to compare the average unknown dance instructor in a city to PUAs who are nationally-known through the news, or who had massive internet marketing machines. Accomplished dance instructors can run pricey workshops. While probably not as expensive as pickup workshops, they can have a higher student:teacher ratio. Based on a dance workshop I found in my area, guessing at a student:teacher ratio, gives the following:
$200 per person * 8:1 student:teacher ratio / 12 hours over two days = $133/hr… and the instructors don’t have to travel. With a 10:1 student:teacher ratio, it’s about $166/hr.
For another comparison, Tony Dovolani of Dancing with the Stars runs dance camps for $600 a person. $600 * 10:1 student:teacher ratio = $6000 / instructor. That overlaps with pickup earnings, though I doubt that Dovolani has the business machine to run his dance camp every weekend, considering that it’s much bigger than a pickup workshop. However, if there is a 10:1 student:teacher ratio (reasonable to assume for ballroom dance classes), and considering that he has 10+ instructors working with him, he isn’t spending 6 hours in a row working like a PUA instructor would.
Both dance and pickup bootcamps suffer from scalability problems, especially pickup because a lower student:teacher ratio is necessary. You can only work on the weekend, and you have to be doing marketing and lead generation during the week. Dance instructors can teach private lessons during the week for $60+ an hour. PUA gurus must make most of their money from ebooks and DVDs, unless they can do some pricier form of coaching. (Of course, dance instructors who are entrepreneurially minded will have instructional DVDs, too.) Or PUA instructors have day jobs during the week, which burns time for building their pickup business.
Running pickup workshops is clearly a very profitable business, but it looks like it’s a lot of work and has a lot of overhead. To fill seats for bootcamps each week, you need a massive marketing and lead generation machine. For teaching students live, pickup seems potentially more profitable than dance, but there is overlap, especially for nationally-known instructors of their respective disciplines. If dance instructors had the marketing machines of pickup companies, the gap would be even narrower.
Doing in-field instruction is also extremely grueling, and live demonstrations are high pressure. Pickup instructors must demonstrate the techniques every weekend even when jetlagged, sick, or hoarse from shouting. On top of that, their work is stigmatized.
Now that I’m using the right numbers, it does seem plausible that pickup instructors can make pretty good sums of money if they work hard, build a strong marketing machine, constantly generate leads, and give up half their weeks traveling. The same is true of many businesses. As for dance, nationally-known pickup instructors are probably in a similar income bracket to nationally-known dance instructors, unless I’m missing something.
In both of those industries, there could be a temptation to skimp on giving 1-on-1 instruction live. Pickup instruction also has additional pressure to perform.
remember that PUAs can only run bootcamps on weekends.
That would be the only line I generally disagree with. Teaching PU is a f’ed up thing. But that also depends a bit on how much your own time is worth.
The problem of choosing a teacher looks very similar to sports. You do not want someone who is a good sport himself, but someone who can train you really well. But to choose someone, you would need to already know the stuff that is taught or at least what to look for.
Many reviews are done in the hyped up after glow right after the workshop. Where I would consider it better to see how someone is doing a year or more after such an event—but that seems to not be too helpful for the business.
[edit: corrected a messed up line break in the top line quote]
Huh? Units do not match. If the average weekend bootcamp makes the instructor $6000-$200 = $5800 / weekend, earnings per year should be (up to) $5800 * 50 = $290,000.
In The Game, and in Mystery’s book The Pickup Artist, the PUA instructors are shown living in fabulously-expensive mansions, driving $100,000+ cars; and described as having come into that wealth very suddenly after starting to teach pickup. David DeAngelo is believed to make millions of dollars every year.
You are describing the reference class ‘best selling authors and self publishing education marketers’, not the reference class ‘pickup instructors’. That a field is large enough to support the sale of popular books is hardly evidence against said field.
NOTE: I made a mistake in this analysis due to a brain fart. I fixed it and reposted it.
That’s correct. I’m not particularly interested in defending any particular method, just the notion that pickup in general can be lead many guys to greater success.
I agree that there is plenty of dishonesty in workshops, based on reviews I’ve heard. I’m not so confident that the money is good. Let’s do a little accounting (based on eyeballing a few well-known programs):
Typical price of weekend bootcamp: $2000
Student teacher ratio: 2-3 students to 1 teacher
Time: 8 hours per day, total: 24 hours. 8 hours field instruction and demonstration, and the rest would be seminars
Assuming a 3:1 student teacher ratio, each instructor would pull in $6000 for the bootcamp. $6000 / 24 hours work = $250/hour. Except we need to count the plane flight. ($6000 - $200 ticket) / (24 + 4 hour flight) = $207/hr.
That might seem like a good wage, but remember that PUAs can only run bootcamps on weekends. $207/hr * 50 weekends a year = $10,350/year. Even if you jack up the bootcamp rates to $3k (which some companies do), that’s still just $15k a year per instructor.
Dance instructions can make $40k/year in metropolitan areas working multiple days a week. Accomplished dance instructors can run pricey workshops. While probably not as expensive as pickup workshops, they can have a higher student:teacher ratio. Based on a dance workshop I found in my area, guessing at a student:teacher ratio, gives the following:
$200 per person * 8:1 student:teacher ratio / 12 hours over two days = $133/hr… and the instructors don’t have to travel. With a 10:1 student:teacher ratio, it’s about $166/hr.
Pickup instructors obviously can’t make much from bootcamps. Bootcamps just aren’t scalable. You can only work on the weekend, and you have to be doing marketing and lead generation during the week. PUA gurus must make most of their money from ebooks and DVDs, unless they can do some pricier form of coaching. (Of course, dance instructors who are entrepreneurially minded will have instructional DVDs, too.) Or PUA instructors have day jobs during the week, which burns time for building their pickup business.
Running pickup workshops is clearly not a very profitable business. For teaching students live, it’s not obvious by how much pickup instructors out-earn instructors in the performing arts… if at all. Doing in-field instruction is also extremely grueling, and live demonstrations are high pressure. Pickup instructors must demonstrate the techniques every weekend even when jetlagged, sick, or hoarse from shouting. On top of that, their work is stigmatized.
If anything, lack of quality of pickup instruction is more likely because PUA gurus are poorly compensated, rather than because they are well-compensated.
So… you wanna be a pickup guru?
That’s correct. I’m not particularly interested in defending any particular method, just the notion that pickup in general can be lead many guys to greater success.
I agree that there is plenty of dishonesty in workshops, based on reviews I’ve heard. I’m not so confident that the money is good. Let’s do a little accounting (based on eyeballing a few well-known programs):
Typical price of weekend bootcamp: $2000
Student teacher ratio: 2-3 students to 1 teacher
Time: 8 hours per day, total: 24 hours. 8 hours field instruction and demonstration, and the rest would be seminars
Assuming a 3:1 student teacher ratio, each instructor would pull in $6000 for the bootcamp. $6000 / 24 hours work = $250/hour. Except we need to count the plane flight. ($6000 - $200 ticket) / (24 + 4 hour flight) = $207/hr.
PUAs can only run bootcamps on weekends. $5800 * 50 weekends a year = $290,000/year. However, you are traveling virtually every weekend, and you need a marketing machine to fill seats in your destinations in front of you. And you will have no life. Looking at an actual bootcamp schedule, it seems that the workshops are $3k and the lead instructors are only working 5-19 weeks over half a year = 10-38 weeks a year.
$3k 3 students - $300 airfare = $8700 a bootcamp 25 bootcamps a year = $217,500. This figure is a lot more optimistic than my previous flawed analysis.
Dance instructors can make $40k/year in metropolitan areas working multiple days a week, but it might not be fair to compare the average unknown dance instructor in a city to PUAs who are nationally-known through the news, or who had massive internet marketing machines. Accomplished dance instructors can run pricey workshops. While probably not as expensive as pickup workshops, they can have a higher student:teacher ratio. Based on a dance workshop I found in my area, guessing at a student:teacher ratio, gives the following:
$200 per person * 8:1 student:teacher ratio / 12 hours over two days = $133/hr… and the instructors don’t have to travel. With a 10:1 student:teacher ratio, it’s about $166/hr.
For another comparison, Tony Dovolani of Dancing with the Stars runs dance camps for $600 a person. $600 * 10:1 student:teacher ratio = $6000 / instructor. That overlaps with pickup earnings, though I doubt that Dovolani has the business machine to run his dance camp every weekend, considering that it’s much bigger than a pickup workshop. However, if there is a 10:1 student:teacher ratio (reasonable to assume for ballroom dance classes), and considering that he has 10+ instructors working with him, he isn’t spending 6 hours in a row working like a PUA instructor would.
Both dance and pickup bootcamps suffer from scalability problems, especially pickup because a lower student:teacher ratio is necessary. You can only work on the weekend, and you have to be doing marketing and lead generation during the week. Dance instructors can teach private lessons during the week for $60+ an hour. PUA gurus must make most of their money from ebooks and DVDs, unless they can do some pricier form of coaching. (Of course, dance instructors who are entrepreneurially minded will have instructional DVDs, too.) Or PUA instructors have day jobs during the week, which burns time for building their pickup business.
Running pickup workshops is clearly a very profitable business, but it looks like it’s a lot of work and has a lot of overhead. To fill seats for bootcamps each week, you need a massive marketing and lead generation machine. For teaching students live, pickup seems potentially more profitable than dance, but there is overlap, especially for nationally-known instructors of their respective disciplines. If dance instructors had the marketing machines of pickup companies, the gap would be even narrower.
Doing in-field instruction is also extremely grueling, and live demonstrations are high pressure. Pickup instructors must demonstrate the techniques every weekend even when jetlagged, sick, or hoarse from shouting. On top of that, their work is stigmatized.
Now that I’m using the right numbers, it does seem plausible that pickup instructors can make pretty good sums of money if they work hard, build a strong marketing machine, constantly generate leads, and give up half their weeks traveling. The same is true of many businesses. As for dance, nationally-known pickup instructors are probably in a similar income bracket to nationally-known dance instructors, unless I’m missing something.
In both of those industries, there could be a temptation to skimp on giving 1-on-1 instruction live. Pickup instruction also has additional pressure to perform.
So… you wanna be a pickup guru?
That would be the only line I generally disagree with. Teaching PU is a f’ed up thing. But that also depends a bit on how much your own time is worth.
The problem of choosing a teacher looks very similar to sports. You do not want someone who is a good sport himself, but someone who can train you really well. But to choose someone, you would need to already know the stuff that is taught or at least what to look for.
Many reviews are done in the hyped up after glow right after the workshop. Where I would consider it better to see how someone is doing a year or more after such an event—but that seems to not be too helpful for the business. [edit: corrected a messed up line break in the top line quote]
Huh? Units do not match. If the average weekend bootcamp makes the instructor $6000-$200 = $5800 / weekend, earnings per year should be (up to) $5800 * 50 = $290,000.
Oops, I changed the analysis in the middle. I’ll go back and re-do it.
In The Game, and in Mystery’s book The Pickup Artist, the PUA instructors are shown living in fabulously-expensive mansions, driving $100,000+ cars; and described as having come into that wealth very suddenly after starting to teach pickup. David DeAngelo is believed to make millions of dollars every year.
Do not model your expectations of an art after its teachers. Especially not after the top crowd of those.
You are describing the reference class ‘best selling authors and self publishing education marketers’, not the reference class ‘pickup instructors’. That a field is large enough to support the sale of popular books is hardly evidence against said field.