For instance, if someone says, “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and girls falling over themselves to be with me”, the fact that the girls appear as an item in a list along with a vehicle and a dwelling would be a giant red flag.
Um, that example actually fails your heuristic: “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and cars falling over themselves to be with me” makes no sense.
This heuristic is imperfect, and some statements may be objectifying even if their applicability is limited to persons.
That appears to contradict your earlier definition:
By “objectify”, I mean to think of, talk about as, or treat like a non-person.
If the applicability of a statement is limited to persons, then how can that possibly be “like a non-person”?
The entire thing sounds like bottom-line reasoning—i.e., the specific thing is something you find repulsive, therefore it’s objectification.
(I’m not even going to touch the thoughtcrime part where you’re classing speech and thoughts to be unethical in themselves, except to mention that this is the part where having such a repulsion is objectively non-useful to you or anyone else, since all it can ever do is cause you and others pain. Of course, I expect this comment to be widely downvoted for that idea, since the right to righteous indignation is itself a religious idea around here, even if it’s more usually wielded in support of Truth or Theory rather than gender sensibilities. All very on-topic for this post about atheist/rationalist denials, as it turns out!)
Um, that example actually fails your heuristic: “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and cars falling over themselves to be with me” makes no sense.
Perhaps you are trying to be funny. If you’re not, I’ll just point out that I did say it was an imperfect heuristic, and anyway to apply it with some finesse means that you might have to replace a whole noun phrase (gasp, shock, alarm).
If the applicability of a statement is limited to persons, then how can that possibly be “like a non-person”?
Because grammar is like that. For instance, most sentences that use gendered pronouns would be deeply strange if applied to non-boat inanimate objects, but that doesn’t stop some such sentences from being objectifying.
The entire thing sounds like bottom-line reasoning—i.e., the specific thing is something you find repulsive, therefore it’s objectification.
No, sometimes things I find repulsive are non-objectifying, and are bad for some other reason. Occasionally, I’m even repulsed by things that are not unethical.
having such a repulsion is objectively non-useful to you or anyone else, since all it can ever do is cause you and others pain.
Not so. By having and announcing this repulsion I can influence anyone who happens to care about my opinion.
By having and announcing this repulsion I can influence anyone who happens to care about my opinion.
...and how is that useful?!
That’s like saying that it’s good to dislike chocolate because then you can make sure nobody gives you any, or that banging your head on the wall is a pleasure because it feels good when you stop. It’d be more useful to just not bang your head, unless there’s something else you’re getting from the activity.
Perhaps you are trying to be funny. If you’re not, I’ll just point out that I did say it was an imperfect heuristic, and anyway to apply it with some finesse means that you might have to replace a whole noun phrase (gasp, shock, alarm).
Then kindly point out what noun phrase you would have replaced. Or in the alternative, please provide a definition of “objectification” that doesn’t boil down to, “I know it when I see it.”
I really have no clue what you’re talking about in the first bit. Do you think that having ethical opinions is useless because if one didn’t have them it would save one a headache? Do you think being repelled is not an appropriate response to detecting an ethical violation? Are you even trying to understand what I’m typing?
Second bit:
“If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and girls falling over themselves to be with me.” → “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and real silverware and crystal dishes.”
Do you think being repelled is not an appropriate response to detecting an ethical violation?
What I was saying was that I think considering people’s words and thoughts (as opposed to their behaviors) about their goals and opinions as having ethical weight is ludicrously unuseful.
I also think repulsion is not an appropriate response to “detecting an ethical violation”, since that emotion motivates signaling behavior rather than useful behavior. For example, it encourages one to communicate one’s beliefs in a judgmental way that communicates entitlement, and discourages co-operation from others.
“If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and girls falling over themselves to be with me.” → “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and real silverware and crystal dishes.”
So, how do you arrive at this substitution? You keep removing the part that only a person can do, so if that rule is applied consistently, you end up with any statement being objectification.
Words are verbal behavior. If you don’t think people can be held ethically responsible for verbal behavior, I’m sure I could come up with some persuasive examples, but I’m no longer sure this discussion is worth my attention, as you’re very persistent in missing the point.
considering people’s words and thoughts (as opposed to their behaviors) about their goals and opinions as having ethical weight is ludicrously unuseful.
Sure, there are unethical verbal behaviors. Truthfully expressing opinions or discussing one’s goals are not among them, however.
Even if somebody opines that their goal is to do something awful to me, then if that is a true statement, it is actually ethically good for them to give me advance warning! So considering someone’s (truthful) verbal behavior about their goals or opinions as unethical is simply not useful to me, regardless of what opinion I may hold about what behavior may result from that opinion or goal.
But what if somebody, in opining that their goal is to do something awful to you, solicits ideas on what awful things to do and how to accomplish them, and encourages others to do awful things to you themselves?
I think that situation is closer to what Alicorn is objecting to.
That is verbal behavior that goes above and beyond just truthfully stating things.
How so? If the first one is what the person actually means, then blowing smoke up my ass about it doesn’t help me.
AFAICT, you are still arguing a bottom line: that truthful verbalization about one’s internal state can be ethically bad. I won’t claim that NO such verbalization can exist as a mathematical absolute, but I haven’t yet seen you offer an example that’s bad by anything other than your own definition of “ethics”—i.e., what makes you feel bad.
So, how can something be wrong that has no bad results, probabilistically OR actually?
Um, that example actually fails your heuristic: “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and cars falling over themselves to be with me” makes no sense.
That appears to contradict your earlier definition:
If the applicability of a statement is limited to persons, then how can that possibly be “like a non-person”?
The entire thing sounds like bottom-line reasoning—i.e., the specific thing is something you find repulsive, therefore it’s objectification.
(I’m not even going to touch the thoughtcrime part where you’re classing speech and thoughts to be unethical in themselves, except to mention that this is the part where having such a repulsion is objectively non-useful to you or anyone else, since all it can ever do is cause you and others pain. Of course, I expect this comment to be widely downvoted for that idea, since the right to righteous indignation is itself a religious idea around here, even if it’s more usually wielded in support of Truth or Theory rather than gender sensibilities. All very on-topic for this post about atheist/rationalist denials, as it turns out!)
I feel your pain… I think I lost about 40 karma in this discussion…
Perhaps you are trying to be funny. If you’re not, I’ll just point out that I did say it was an imperfect heuristic, and anyway to apply it with some finesse means that you might have to replace a whole noun phrase (gasp, shock, alarm).
Because grammar is like that. For instance, most sentences that use gendered pronouns would be deeply strange if applied to non-boat inanimate objects, but that doesn’t stop some such sentences from being objectifying.
No, sometimes things I find repulsive are non-objectifying, and are bad for some other reason. Occasionally, I’m even repulsed by things that are not unethical.
Not so. By having and announcing this repulsion I can influence anyone who happens to care about my opinion.
...and how is that useful?!
That’s like saying that it’s good to dislike chocolate because then you can make sure nobody gives you any, or that banging your head on the wall is a pleasure because it feels good when you stop. It’d be more useful to just not bang your head, unless there’s something else you’re getting from the activity.
Then kindly point out what noun phrase you would have replaced. Or in the alternative, please provide a definition of “objectification” that doesn’t boil down to, “I know it when I see it.”
I really have no clue what you’re talking about in the first bit. Do you think that having ethical opinions is useless because if one didn’t have them it would save one a headache? Do you think being repelled is not an appropriate response to detecting an ethical violation? Are you even trying to understand what I’m typing?
Second bit:
“If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and girls falling over themselves to be with me.” → “If I were rich, I’d have a nice house and a sports car and real silverware and crystal dishes.”
What I was saying was that I think considering people’s words and thoughts (as opposed to their behaviors) about their goals and opinions as having ethical weight is ludicrously unuseful.
I also think repulsion is not an appropriate response to “detecting an ethical violation”, since that emotion motivates signaling behavior rather than useful behavior. For example, it encourages one to communicate one’s beliefs in a judgmental way that communicates entitlement, and discourages co-operation from others.
So, how do you arrive at this substitution? You keep removing the part that only a person can do, so if that rule is applied consistently, you end up with any statement being objectification.
Words are verbal behavior. If you don’t think people can be held ethically responsible for verbal behavior, I’m sure I could come up with some persuasive examples, but I’m no longer sure this discussion is worth my attention, as you’re very persistent in missing the point.
Please reread:
Sure, there are unethical verbal behaviors. Truthfully expressing opinions or discussing one’s goals are not among them, however.
Even if somebody opines that their goal is to do something awful to me, then if that is a true statement, it is actually ethically good for them to give me advance warning! So considering someone’s (truthful) verbal behavior about their goals or opinions as unethical is simply not useful to me, regardless of what opinion I may hold about what behavior may result from that opinion or goal.
But what if somebody, in opining that their goal is to do something awful to you, solicits ideas on what awful things to do and how to accomplish them, and encourages others to do awful things to you themselves?
I think that situation is closer to what Alicorn is objecting to.
People can phrase things in many ways. There is a difference which may be ethically relevant between:
“So-and-so is a [profanity] and I’m going to lose it and [threats of violence] if he doesn’t leave me alone!”
and
“I don’t like so-and-so and I wish he’d go away. I might do something really regrettable if he doesn’t; he just gets on my nerves that much.”
Even though the goals and opinions might be just alike. That is verbal behavior that goes above and beyond just truthfully stating things.
How so? If the first one is what the person actually means, then blowing smoke up my ass about it doesn’t help me.
AFAICT, you are still arguing a bottom line: that truthful verbalization about one’s internal state can be ethically bad. I won’t claim that NO such verbalization can exist as a mathematical absolute, but I haven’t yet seen you offer an example that’s bad by anything other than your own definition of “ethics”—i.e., what makes you feel bad.
So, how can something be wrong that has no bad results, probabilistically OR actually?