What exactly is the pro-information position here? Cause I’m against this being produced and agree with bans on it’s distribution and possession as a way of hurting its purveyors. The way such laws are enforced, at least in America, is sometimes disgraceful. But I don’t think it is an inherrently bad policy.
If the purveyors are revealed to the public, I think we’ll find better ways to stop them, instead of creating a black-market environment which makes their product more valuable. There’s also the non-negligible side benefit of turning fewer innocent people into lifelong pariahs.
Well yes, that would be great information. But I don’t see how letting people own and distribute child porn is going to reveal that information. The market is always going to be black in some respect if it is illegal to produce it. The reason I asked what the position was is that it isn’t obvious to me that producing child pornography isn’t gathering information.
instead of creating a black-market environment which makes their product more valuable.
If you legalize possession but not production you’ve lowered the cost of consuming (increased the demand) while not affecting the supply. This will drive up prices.
There’s also the non-negligible side benefit of turning fewer innocent people into lifelong pariahs.
Just adjust the laws so that someone who decides to download a huge pornfile that happens to include a few illegal photos doesn’t get convicted...
If you legalize possession but not production you’ve lowered the cost of consuming (increased the demand) while not affecting the supply.
There is this thing called ‘peer-to-peer file sharing.’ If possession is legal, any possessor can also be a supplier by sharing what they’ve already got, but the original producers can’t claim copyright without incriminating themselves. That drastically increases the supply, driving the price down close to zero.
Close to zero? Really? There is already negligible enforcement of copyright and for a number of years there was zero enforcement of copyright. Media industries, porn and otherwise, have been doing fine.If necessary the industry will start only streaming video and uploading decoy files. Not to mention groups of people who just produce it for each other with no money changing hands will be able to operate unhindered. I’m not an expert but I imagine it is drastically more difficult to put someone away for distribution than production- and thats how the industry would end up working, shielding the producers while legal distributors buy and sell.
If producers work closely with specific distributors, it would be possible to get the distributors for ‘aiding and abetting’ or RICO sorts of things. Customers would also be more willing to cooperate with law enforcement if they knew they wouldn’t be punished for doing so, and limited enforcement resources could be concentrated on the actual producers instead of randomly harrassing anyone who happens to have it on their HD.
Groups of people who produce it for each other with no money involved would be hard to track down under any circumstances; I don’t see how decriminalizing possession makes that worse.
If producers work closely with specific distributors, it would be possible to get the distributors for ‘aiding and abetting’ or RICO sorts of things.
A lot harder to prove than distribution and possession.
Customers would also be more willing to cooperate with law enforcement if they knew they wouldn’t be punished for doing so
Well you’ve just taken away law enforcement’s entire bargaining position. Right now customers have to cooperate under threat of prosecution.
and limited enforcement resources could be concentrated on the actual producers instead of randomly harrassing anyone who happens to have it on their HD.
What we want is for law enforcement to concentrate their resources on the producers without taking away the tools they need to do so effectively. The key is structuring the law and incentives for law enforcement so that they have to go after the producers and not guys who accidentally download it. Maybe force prosecutors to demonstrate the possessor had intentionally downloaded it or has viewed it multiple times. Or offer institutional incentives for going after the big fish.
Groups of people who produce it for each other with no money involved would be hard to track down under any circumstances; I don’t see how decriminalizing possession makes that worse.
Well again, it is a lot easier to prove possession and distribution then it is production.
Well you’ve just taken away law enforcement’s entire bargaining position. Right now customers have to cooperate under threat of prosecution.
So most of them avoid law enforcement entirely for fear of getting ‘v&’ instead of providing tips out of concern for the welfare of the children. I mean, once you’ve cooperated, what’s law enforcement’s incentive not to prosecute you?
Justice is not necessarily best served by making the cop’s job easier. So long as law enforcement is rewarded by the conviction, they’ll go for low-hanging fruit: that is, the people who aren’t protecting themselves because they think they’re not doing anything wrong. Broad laws that anyone could violate unwittingly, and which the police enforce at their own discretion? That’s not a necessary tool for some higher purpose, it’s overwhelming power waiting to be abused.
So most of them avoid law enforcement entirely for fear of getting ‘v&’ instead of providing tips out of concern for the welfare of the children. I mean, once you’ve cooperated, what’s law enforcement’s incentive not to prosecute you?
You know what prosecutorial immunity is, right? Also, I don’t know why you think pedophiles are itching to come forward with tips on their porn suppliers. If they were there are always ways to make anonymous tips to the police.
Justice is not necessarily best served by making the cop’s job easier. So long as law enforcement is rewarded by the conviction, they’ll go for low-hanging fruit: that is, the people who aren’t protecting themselves because they think they’re not doing anything wrong.
For the third time: make prosecuting the low-hanging fruit more difficult and lower the incentives to do so. That is my position. You don’t have to handcuff law enforcement’s investigation of the producers to do this.
Edit: One other way to do this that I haven’t mentioned: legalize small possession of a small amount of child pornography or make small amounts a misdemeanor.
If the purveyors are revealed to the public, I think we’ll find better ways to stop them, instead of creating a black-market environment which makes their product more valuable. There’s also the non-negligible side benefit of turning fewer innocent people into lifelong pariahs.
Well yes, that would be great information. But I don’t see how letting people own and distribute child porn is going to reveal that information. The market is always going to be black in some respect if it is illegal to produce it. The reason I asked what the position was is that it isn’t obvious to me that producing child pornography isn’t gathering information.
If you legalize possession but not production you’ve lowered the cost of consuming (increased the demand) while not affecting the supply. This will drive up prices.
Just adjust the laws so that someone who decides to download a huge pornfile that happens to include a few illegal photos doesn’t get convicted...
There is this thing called ‘peer-to-peer file sharing.’ If possession is legal, any possessor can also be a supplier by sharing what they’ve already got, but the original producers can’t claim copyright without incriminating themselves. That drastically increases the supply, driving the price down close to zero.
Close to zero? Really? There is already negligible enforcement of copyright and for a number of years there was zero enforcement of copyright. Media industries, porn and otherwise, have been doing fine.If necessary the industry will start only streaming video and uploading decoy files. Not to mention groups of people who just produce it for each other with no money changing hands will be able to operate unhindered. I’m not an expert but I imagine it is drastically more difficult to put someone away for distribution than production- and thats how the industry would end up working, shielding the producers while legal distributors buy and sell.
If producers work closely with specific distributors, it would be possible to get the distributors for ‘aiding and abetting’ or RICO sorts of things. Customers would also be more willing to cooperate with law enforcement if they knew they wouldn’t be punished for doing so, and limited enforcement resources could be concentrated on the actual producers instead of randomly harrassing anyone who happens to have it on their HD.
Groups of people who produce it for each other with no money involved would be hard to track down under any circumstances; I don’t see how decriminalizing possession makes that worse.
A lot harder to prove than distribution and possession.
Well you’ve just taken away law enforcement’s entire bargaining position. Right now customers have to cooperate under threat of prosecution.
What we want is for law enforcement to concentrate their resources on the producers without taking away the tools they need to do so effectively. The key is structuring the law and incentives for law enforcement so that they have to go after the producers and not guys who accidentally download it. Maybe force prosecutors to demonstrate the possessor had intentionally downloaded it or has viewed it multiple times. Or offer institutional incentives for going after the big fish.
Well again, it is a lot easier to prove possession and distribution then it is production.
So most of them avoid law enforcement entirely for fear of getting ‘v&’ instead of providing tips out of concern for the welfare of the children. I mean, once you’ve cooperated, what’s law enforcement’s incentive not to prosecute you?
Justice is not necessarily best served by making the cop’s job easier. So long as law enforcement is rewarded by the conviction, they’ll go for low-hanging fruit: that is, the people who aren’t protecting themselves because they think they’re not doing anything wrong. Broad laws that anyone could violate unwittingly, and which the police enforce at their own discretion? That’s not a necessary tool for some higher purpose, it’s overwhelming power waiting to be abused.
You know what prosecutorial immunity is, right? Also, I don’t know why you think pedophiles are itching to come forward with tips on their porn suppliers. If they were there are always ways to make anonymous tips to the police.
For the third time: make prosecuting the low-hanging fruit more difficult and lower the incentives to do so. That is my position. You don’t have to handcuff law enforcement’s investigation of the producers to do this.
Edit: One other way to do this that I haven’t mentioned: legalize small possession of a small amount of child pornography or make small amounts a misdemeanor.