I suggest the alternative strategy of not killing the Buddha on the road if you meet him. Likewise I recommend ignoring the related advice to kill patriarchs, arhats, parents and kinsman. Contrary to Linji’s words, Homicide is not the optimal path to emancipation, enlightenment or disentanglement. The quote in the one sentence form presented here and in its broader context is rubbish.
If there is any wisdom associated with this quote (and even that I doubt) it comes from the reader pattern matching the bullshit to the nearest available sane message that they already have cached. That kind of quote can gain popularity, in contexts where obfuscation is confused with insight. It does not belong in “Rationality Quotes”.
I could give some kind of “level above mine” interpretation to this, but it would merely provide additional support for your claim about pattern matching. Consider me persuaded by your reasoning.
Contrary to Linji’s words, Homicide is not the optimal path to emancipation, enlightenment or disentanglement.
I honestly don’t know why doing something like that to words that obviously weren’t meant to be taken literally strikes anyone as clever.
The quote is commonly understood to be about not getting hung up on the concept of the Buddha, or letting symbols and figures of authority get in the way of actual practice. As in, keep your eye on the ball, and don’t start worshipping the Buddha instead of actually practicing buddhism. And if, when meditating, you “meet” (get some sort of a vision of) a Buddha or other amazing stuff, well, it’s just images in your mind; don’t attach unwarranted importance to them.
I like this quote because I find it analogous to how the point of rationality isn’t one’s self-image as a rational person, or some specific rituals of cognition, or listening to what an admired teacher says, but actually getting the right answers.
That said, I agree it’s a risky choice for a rationality quote, but mainly because, well, it takes for granted the reader practices Buddhism. But that doesn’t mean it’s garbage.
That said, I agree it’s a risky choice for a rationality quote, but mainly because, well, it takes for granted the reader practices Buddhism. But that doesn’t mean it’s garbage.
Yes, it is a garbage rationality quote. The only wisdom associated with the quote is wisdom that you must bring with you before hand and listen to despite the words.
I like this quote because I find it analogous to how the point of rationality isn’t one’s self-image as a rational person, or some specific rituals of cognition, or listening to what an admired teacher says, but actually getting the right answers.
Actually getting the right answers in this case means ignoring the quote and doing sane stuff anyway. In this case because you happen to have heard what the teacher (and the other students) have said are the words you are supposed to think in response to that stimulus.
I’m going to continue to oppose “rationality quotes” where the strategic message is obfuscated by or represented by bullshit. This isn’t supposed to “strike anyone as clever”. It’s supposed to be a practical, obvious, and entirely appropriate preference.
I’m going to continue to oppose “rationality quotes” where the strategic message is obfuscated by or represented by bullshit.
I agree with you in principle. Whenever I see a quote that needs to be read very charitably before it can be interpreted as a rationality quote, I feel we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. But, sometimes, a statement can be a poor choice as words of wisdom for a modern audience, and yet have value in its original context or domain. And by value I don’t mean popularity, I mean successfully conveying an intended message.
I’m all for promoting a preference for clarity, directness, and penalising obscurantism. I’ve said it before, but reading Less Wrong in particular had a strong impact on my own standards of deciding that the author even has anything to say. But not every useful message in history, at all times and in all cultures, was conveyed with those kinds of standards in mind. It’s one thing to say “this is unclear and seems out of place here”. It’s quite another to state with great confidence that a statement must be bullshit just because I happened not to have the background knowledge to understand it.
A bit of an aside: while we have this “cached thoughts bad” meme here, relying on pattern matching and cache lookups isn’t automatically bad. It’s a necessary part of saying something non-literal, without which human communication would be very flat and boring.
To my understanding, what this statement brought to the table, above the thoughts already cached by the students, was the iconoclastic shock. Especially in a culture where there’s an expectation of deference and not questioning of teachers and authority, it would be all too easy for students to be told “don’t get stuck on worshipping the Buddha and the patriarhs, that’s not the point”, and nod sagely and continue with the same idolatrous attitude as before. But when one teacher says “you must kill the Buddha!”, or another, as traditions have it, spits on a statue, it’s not as easy to convince yourself nothing happened. (One wonders if anyone ever responded by asking why they had all those statues around in the first place.)
I suggest the alternative strategy of not killing the Buddha on the road if you meet him. Likewise I recommend ignoring the related advice to kill patriarchs, arhats, parents and kinsman. Contrary to Linji’s words, Homicide is not the optimal path to emancipation, enlightenment or disentanglement. The quote in the one sentence form presented here and in its broader context is rubbish.
If there is any wisdom associated with this quote (and even that I doubt) it comes from the reader pattern matching the bullshit to the nearest available sane message that they already have cached. That kind of quote can gain popularity, in contexts where obfuscation is confused with insight. It does not belong in “Rationality Quotes”.
I could give some kind of “level above mine” interpretation to this, but it would merely provide additional support for your claim about pattern matching. Consider me persuaded by your reasoning.
I honestly don’t know why doing something like that to words that obviously weren’t meant to be taken literally strikes anyone as clever.
The quote is commonly understood to be about not getting hung up on the concept of the Buddha, or letting symbols and figures of authority get in the way of actual practice. As in, keep your eye on the ball, and don’t start worshipping the Buddha instead of actually practicing buddhism. And if, when meditating, you “meet” (get some sort of a vision of) a Buddha or other amazing stuff, well, it’s just images in your mind; don’t attach unwarranted importance to them.
I like this quote because I find it analogous to how the point of rationality isn’t one’s self-image as a rational person, or some specific rituals of cognition, or listening to what an admired teacher says, but actually getting the right answers.
That said, I agree it’s a risky choice for a rationality quote, but mainly because, well, it takes for granted the reader practices Buddhism. But that doesn’t mean it’s garbage.
It was obvious to me that the intended meaning was not the literal one, but it wasn’t obvious to me what the intended meaning was, if there was any.
I like this variant I’ve read in a newsgroup, way back in the dark ages: “If you meet the Buddha on the Net, put him in your killfile”. :-)
Yes, it is a garbage rationality quote. The only wisdom associated with the quote is wisdom that you must bring with you before hand and listen to despite the words.
Actually getting the right answers in this case means ignoring the quote and doing sane stuff anyway. In this case because you happen to have heard what the teacher (and the other students) have said are the words you are supposed to think in response to that stimulus.
I’m going to continue to oppose “rationality quotes” where the strategic message is obfuscated by or represented by bullshit. This isn’t supposed to “strike anyone as clever”. It’s supposed to be a practical, obvious, and entirely appropriate preference.
I agree with you in principle. Whenever I see a quote that needs to be read very charitably before it can be interpreted as a rationality quote, I feel we’re scraping the bottom of the barrel. But, sometimes, a statement can be a poor choice as words of wisdom for a modern audience, and yet have value in its original context or domain. And by value I don’t mean popularity, I mean successfully conveying an intended message.
I’m all for promoting a preference for clarity, directness, and penalising obscurantism. I’ve said it before, but reading Less Wrong in particular had a strong impact on my own standards of deciding that the author even has anything to say. But not every useful message in history, at all times and in all cultures, was conveyed with those kinds of standards in mind. It’s one thing to say “this is unclear and seems out of place here”. It’s quite another to state with great confidence that a statement must be bullshit just because I happened not to have the background knowledge to understand it.
A bit of an aside: while we have this “cached thoughts bad” meme here, relying on pattern matching and cache lookups isn’t automatically bad. It’s a necessary part of saying something non-literal, without which human communication would be very flat and boring.
To my understanding, what this statement brought to the table, above the thoughts already cached by the students, was the iconoclastic shock. Especially in a culture where there’s an expectation of deference and not questioning of teachers and authority, it would be all too easy for students to be told “don’t get stuck on worshipping the Buddha and the patriarhs, that’s not the point”, and nod sagely and continue with the same idolatrous attitude as before. But when one teacher says “you must kill the Buddha!”, or another, as traditions have it, spits on a statue, it’s not as easy to convince yourself nothing happened. (One wonders if anyone ever responded by asking why they had all those statues around in the first place.)
Tozan may admit you, but you should not be admitted under Tokusan.
Agreed.
If I meet Tokusan on the road and he tries to stop me that’s a whole different question! ;)