One has to be careful not to let this devolve into a “we had to destroy this village to save it” scenario. It is possible to win the battle and lose the war, that is, completely screw up the kid’s social life for the rest of his time in this school.
It’s hard to give generic recommendations, it all depends on particular circumstances. Obviously there is a balance to be struck between helicopter parenting and “as long as he’s not in a hospital it’s all fine”. In some cases it’s better to let the kid handle it himself, in some cases it’s better to go to the administration, in some cases it’s better to switch schools.
My intention isn’t to create a typical social interaction where none currently exists. My intention is to prevent non-aggressors from feeling like the only course of action is to become an aggressor, and the general-case solution to that problem requires an appeal to the social systems set in place for that purpose.
In some cases it’s better to let the kid handle it himself, in some cases it’s better to go to the administration, in some cases it’s better to switch schools.
How about teaching the kid to handle it himself, as in “okay let’s analyze this situation together and come up with some creative solutions”? That would be my first choice; get the kid to practice something like rejection theory for standing up to bullies or something like that, or practice martial arts, or invite “potential allies” out to Disneyland or I dunno, my kid isn’t getting bullied yet (that I know of).
The “traditional” way of stopping bullying is quite painful. It essentially involves treating the bully as a Skinnerian rat and hurting him every time he attacks you. You pay a high price in pain yourself, but if, basically, every time the bully hassles you he gets kicked in the balls, pretty soon he’ll stop hassling you even if each time he “prevailed” and beat you up.
Other usual ways are to use social skills (which are usually lacking) and/or bulk up / learn effective fighting.
Of course that all presupposes physical aggression and boys.
Girls tend to go for passive-aggressive emotional attacks which can be harder to deal with.
Boys will do the passive-aggressive thing if they think they can’t take you physically. I had that experience growing up; I was too big to beat up but too socially inept to handle other forms of bullying. School was hell.
Boys will do the passive-aggressive thing if they think they can’t take you physically. I had that experience growing up; I was too big to beat up but too socially inept to handle other forms of bullying. School was hell.
Did you try punching people who dissed you? That works for some people. Especially if they practice their skill at recognising the effective ways to deploy the power.
On a couple of occasions, I did. Trouble was, I was sufficiently clueless that the people who were inclined to wind me up also managed to direct my ire towards third parties who didn’t deserve it. “Let’s you and him fight,” more or less. Those were not shining moments in my moral life, although some bits of them do make funny stories twenty years later.
I have this mental list of people to locate if and when the government collapses sufficiently that law enforcement closes up shop....
Eh, it can be quite painful, but you just need to reach the point where bullying someone else is less of a hassle.
Girls tend to go for passive-aggressive emotional attacks which can be harder to deal with.
The rejection therapy and the Disneyland solution might still work here. Though in that case I’d look for advice from girls; I’ll get to that if I have a daughter AND she gets bullied; no hurry :)
Eh, it can be quite painful, but you just need to reach the point where bullying someone else is less of a hassle.
Kind of a late reply on this one, but I’ll point out that this depends on what kind of bully you’re dealing with. Not all bullies are opportunists or cowards, and in particular some are playing a dominance game which they will not permit themselves to lose. To respond to a challenge by changing targets would be to implicitly acknowledge that they don’t have dominance over their original target, something they’re unwilling to accept, so they’ll respond to challenges by escalating until one side is unable to keep up. This is the kind of case where getting outside intervention is usually the most necessary.
Some children commit suicide because of bullying. If those children instead killed their bullies, I think it would be a net improvement for the society. It would prevent those bullies to do the same with more children, and it would send a message that bullying is dangerous for both sides.
More cynically, it would motivate schools to investigate the cases of bullying when the bully is a popular person and the victim is low-status. We don’t want popular people to be killed, do we?
I think you made the assumption that each suicide would kill only one bully.
Even if it isn’t true, I’m inclined to agree that it would be a net improvement, but it would be on the opposite side of the maximum of the curve with ‘strength of response’ as the independent variable and ‘desirability of outcome’ as the dependent.
One has to be careful not to let this devolve into a “we had to destroy this village to save it” scenario. It is possible to win the battle and lose the war, that is, completely screw up the kid’s social life for the rest of his time in this school.
It’s hard to give generic recommendations, it all depends on particular circumstances. Obviously there is a balance to be struck between helicopter parenting and “as long as he’s not in a hospital it’s all fine”. In some cases it’s better to let the kid handle it himself, in some cases it’s better to go to the administration, in some cases it’s better to switch schools.
My intention isn’t to create a typical social interaction where none currently exists. My intention is to prevent non-aggressors from feeling like the only course of action is to become an aggressor, and the general-case solution to that problem requires an appeal to the social systems set in place for that purpose.
How about teaching the kid to handle it himself, as in “okay let’s analyze this situation together and come up with some creative solutions”? That would be my first choice; get the kid to practice something like rejection theory for standing up to bullies or something like that, or practice martial arts, or invite “potential allies” out to Disneyland or I dunno, my kid isn’t getting bullied yet (that I know of).
Provided the kid can.
The “traditional” way of stopping bullying is quite painful. It essentially involves treating the bully as a Skinnerian rat and hurting him every time he attacks you. You pay a high price in pain yourself, but if, basically, every time the bully hassles you he gets kicked in the balls, pretty soon he’ll stop hassling you even if each time he “prevailed” and beat you up.
Other usual ways are to use social skills (which are usually lacking) and/or bulk up / learn effective fighting.
Of course that all presupposes physical aggression and boys.
Girls tend to go for passive-aggressive emotional attacks which can be harder to deal with.
Boys will do the passive-aggressive thing if they think they can’t take you physically. I had that experience growing up; I was too big to beat up but too socially inept to handle other forms of bullying. School was hell.
Did you try punching people who dissed you? That works for some people. Especially if they practice their skill at recognising the effective ways to deploy the power.
On a couple of occasions, I did. Trouble was, I was sufficiently clueless that the people who were inclined to wind me up also managed to direct my ire towards third parties who didn’t deserve it. “Let’s you and him fight,” more or less. Those were not shining moments in my moral life, although some bits of them do make funny stories twenty years later.
I have this mental list of people to locate if and when the government collapses sufficiently that law enforcement closes up shop....
Eh, it can be quite painful, but you just need to reach the point where bullying someone else is less of a hassle.
The rejection therapy and the Disneyland solution might still work here. Though in that case I’d look for advice from girls; I’ll get to that if I have a daughter AND she gets bullied; no hurry :)
Kind of a late reply on this one, but I’ll point out that this depends on what kind of bully you’re dealing with. Not all bullies are opportunists or cowards, and in particular some are playing a dominance game which they will not permit themselves to lose. To respond to a challenge by changing targets would be to implicitly acknowledge that they don’t have dominance over their original target, something they’re unwilling to accept, so they’ll respond to challenges by escalating until one side is unable to keep up. This is the kind of case where getting outside intervention is usually the most necessary.
Or take the Ender route and kill the aggressor. That sure stops the bullying, but it fits ‘destroy the village to save it’.
Some children commit suicide because of bullying. If those children instead killed their bullies, I think it would be a net improvement for the society. It would prevent those bullies to do the same with more children, and it would send a message that bullying is dangerous for both sides.
More cynically, it would motivate schools to investigate the cases of bullying when the bully is a popular person and the victim is low-status. We don’t want popular people to be killed, do we?
I think you made the assumption that each suicide would kill only one bully.
Even if it isn’t true, I’m inclined to agree that it would be a net improvement, but it would be on the opposite side of the maximum of the curve with ‘strength of response’ as the independent variable and ‘desirability of outcome’ as the dependent.