Only if you choose to discard any thought to how machines are actually built. There’s no magic going on in that blinking box, just ciruits performing the functions they were designed to do in the order they’re told.
There’s no magic going on inside the two pounds of fatty tissue inside my skull either. Magic is apparently not required for creativity or initiative (whatever those may be).
Actually, they do precisely what they’re told because without a fitness function which determines what problem they are to solve in their output and their level of correctness, they just crash the computer. Don’t confuse algorithms that have very generous bounds and allow us to try different possible solutions to the same problem for some sort of thinking or initiative on the computer’s part.
I’m confused by what you mean by “thinking” and “initiative.” Let’s narrow the field slightly. Would the ability to come up with new definitions and conjectures in math be an example of thinking and initiative?
And when computers do something weird, it’s because of a bug which sends them persuing their logic in whays programmers never intended, not because they decide to go off on their own.
Calling something a bug doesn’t change the nature of what is happening. That’s just a label. Humans are likely as smart as they are due to runaway sexual selection for intelligence. And then humans got really smart and realized that they could have all the pleasure of sex while avoiding the hassle of reproduction. Is the use of birth-control an example of human initiative or a bug? Does it make a difference?
Would the ability to come up with new definitions and conjectures in math be an example of thinking and initiative?
Yes, but with a caveat. I could teach an ANN how to solve a problem but it would be more or less by random trial and error with a squashing function until each “neuron” has the right weight and activation function. So it will learn how to solve this generic problem, but it won’t be because it traced its way along all the steps.
(Actually I made in mistake in my previous reply, ANNs have no fitness function, that’s a genetic algorithm. ANNs are given an input and a desired output.)
So if you develop a new defintion or conjecture and can state why and how you did it, then develop a proof, you’ve shown thought. Your attempt to suddenly create a new definition or theorem just because you wanted to and were curious rather than just tasked to do it would be initiative.
Calling something a bug doesn’t change the nature of what is happening. That’s just a label.
No, you see, a bug is when a computer does something it’s not supposed to do and handles its data incorrectly. Birth control is actually another approach to reproduction most of the time, delaying progeny until we feel ready to raise them. Those who don’t have children have put their evolutionary desire to provide for themselves above the drive to reproduce and counter that urge with protected sex. So it’s not really a bug as it is a solution to some of the problems posed by reproduction. Now, celibacy is something I’d call a bug and we know from many studies that it’s almost always a really bad idea to forgo sex altogether. Mental health tends to suffer greatly.
So if you develop a new defintion or conjecture and can state why and how you did it, then develop a proof, you’ve shown thought. Your attempt to suddenly create a new definition or theorem just because you wanted to and were curious rather than just tasked to do it would be initiative.
Hmm, so would a grad student who is thinking about a thesis problem because their advisor said to think about it be showing initiative? Is a professional mathematician showing initiative? They keep thinking about math because that’s what gives them positive feedback (e.g. salary, tenure, positive remarks from their peers).
No, you see, a bug is when a computer does something it’s not supposed to do and handles its data incorrectly
Is “incorrectly” a normative or descriptive term? .How is it different than “this program didn’t do what I expected it to do” other than that you label it a bug when the program deviates more from what you wanted to accomplish? Keep in mind that what a human wants isn’t a notion that cleaves reality at the joints.
Birth control is actually another approach to reproduction most of the time, delaying progeny until we feel ready to raise them. Those who don’t have children have put their evolutionary desire to provide for themselves above the drive to reproduce and counter that urge with protected sex. So it’s not really a bug as it is a solution to some of the problems posed by reproduction.
Ok. So when someone (and I know quite a few people in this category) deliberately uses birth control because they want the pleasure of sex but don’t want to ever have kids, is that a bug in your view?
Hmm, so would a grad student who is thinking about a thesis problem because their advisor said to think about it be showing initiative?
Dis he/she volunteer to work on a problem and come to the advisor saying that this is the thesis subject? Doesn’t sound like it, so I’d say it’s not. Initiative is doing something that’s not required, but something you feel needs to be done or something you want to do.
Is “incorrectly” a normative or descriptive term?
Yes. When you need it to return “A” and it retuns “Finland,” it made a mistake which has to be fixed. How it came to that mistake can be found by tracing the logic after the bug manifests itself.
Keep in mind that what a human wants isn’t a notion that cleaves reality at the joints.
Ok, whan you build a car but the car doesn’t start, I don’t think you’re going to say that the car is just doing what it wants and we humans are just selfishly insisting that it bends to our whims. You’re probably going to take that thing to a mechanic. Same thing with computers, even AI. If you build an AI to learn a language and it doesn’t seem to be able to do so, there’s a bug in the system.
So when someone (and I know quite a few people in this category) deliberately uses birth control because they want the pleasure of sex but don’t want to ever have kids, is that a bug in your view?
That’s answered in the second sentence of the quote you chose...
Dis he/she volunteer to work on a problem and come to the advisor saying that this is the thesis subject? Doesn’t sound like it, so I’d say it’s not. Initiative is doing something that’s not required, but something you feel needs to be done or something you want to do.
Ok. Now, if said grad student did come to the thesis adviser, but their motivation was that they’ve been taught from a very young age that they should do math. Is there initiative?
Ok, whan you build a car but the car doesn’t start, I don’t think you’re going to say that the car is just doing what it wants and we humans are just selfishly insisting that it bends to our whims. You’re probably going to take that thing to a mechanic. Same thing with computers, even AI. If you build an AI to learn a language and it doesn’t seem to be able to do so, there’s a bug in the system.
It seems that a large part of the disagreement is implicit premises here. You seem to be focused on very narrow AI, when the entire issue is what happens when one doesn’t have narrow AI but have AI that has most capabilities that humans have. Let’s set aside whether or not we should build such AIs and whether or not they are possible. Assuming that such entities are possible, do you or do you not think there’s a risk of the AI getting out of control.
So when someone (and I know quite a few people in this category) deliberately uses birth control because they want the pleasure of sex but don’t want to ever have kids, is that a bug in your view?
That’s answered in the second sentence of the quote you chose...
Either there’s a miscommunication here or there’s a misunderstanding about how evolution works. An organism that puts its own survival over reproducing is an evolutionary dead end. Historically, lots of humans didn’t want any children, but they didn’t have effective birth control methods, so in the ancestral environment there was minimal evolutionary incentive to remove that preference. It has only been recently that there is widespread and effective birth control. So, what you’ve said is one evolved desire overriding another would still seem to be a bug.
Now, if said grad student did come to the thesis adviser, but their motivation was that they’ve been taught from a very young age that they should do math. Is there initiative?
Not sure. You could argue both points in this situation.
Assuming that such entities are possible, do you or do you not think there’s a risk of the AI getting out of control.
Any AI can get out of control. I never denied that. My issue is with how that should be managed, not whether it can happen.
So, what you’ve said is one evolved desire overriding another would still seem to be a bug.
There’s no magic going on inside the two pounds of fatty tissue inside my skull either. Magic is apparently not required for creativity or initiative (whatever those may be).
I’m confused by what you mean by “thinking” and “initiative.” Let’s narrow the field slightly. Would the ability to come up with new definitions and conjectures in math be an example of thinking and initiative?
Calling something a bug doesn’t change the nature of what is happening. That’s just a label. Humans are likely as smart as they are due to runaway sexual selection for intelligence. And then humans got really smart and realized that they could have all the pleasure of sex while avoiding the hassle of reproduction. Is the use of birth-control an example of human initiative or a bug? Does it make a difference?
Yes, but with a caveat. I could teach an ANN how to solve a problem but it would be more or less by random trial and error with a squashing function until each “neuron” has the right weight and activation function. So it will learn how to solve this generic problem, but it won’t be because it traced its way along all the steps.
(Actually I made in mistake in my previous reply, ANNs have no fitness function, that’s a genetic algorithm. ANNs are given an input and a desired output.)
So if you develop a new defintion or conjecture and can state why and how you did it, then develop a proof, you’ve shown thought. Your attempt to suddenly create a new definition or theorem just because you wanted to and were curious rather than just tasked to do it would be initiative.
No, you see, a bug is when a computer does something it’s not supposed to do and handles its data incorrectly. Birth control is actually another approach to reproduction most of the time, delaying progeny until we feel ready to raise them. Those who don’t have children have put their evolutionary desire to provide for themselves above the drive to reproduce and counter that urge with protected sex. So it’s not really a bug as it is a solution to some of the problems posed by reproduction. Now, celibacy is something I’d call a bug and we know from many studies that it’s almost always a really bad idea to forgo sex altogether. Mental health tends to suffer greatly.
Hmm, so would a grad student who is thinking about a thesis problem because their advisor said to think about it be showing initiative? Is a professional mathematician showing initiative? They keep thinking about math because that’s what gives them positive feedback (e.g. salary, tenure, positive remarks from their peers).
Is “incorrectly” a normative or descriptive term? .How is it different than “this program didn’t do what I expected it to do” other than that you label it a bug when the program deviates more from what you wanted to accomplish? Keep in mind that what a human wants isn’t a notion that cleaves reality at the joints.
Ok. So when someone (and I know quite a few people in this category) deliberately uses birth control because they want the pleasure of sex but don’t want to ever have kids, is that a bug in your view?
Dis he/she volunteer to work on a problem and come to the advisor saying that this is the thesis subject? Doesn’t sound like it, so I’d say it’s not. Initiative is doing something that’s not required, but something you feel needs to be done or something you want to do.
Yes. When you need it to return “A” and it retuns “Finland,” it made a mistake which has to be fixed. How it came to that mistake can be found by tracing the logic after the bug manifests itself.
Ok, whan you build a car but the car doesn’t start, I don’t think you’re going to say that the car is just doing what it wants and we humans are just selfishly insisting that it bends to our whims. You’re probably going to take that thing to a mechanic. Same thing with computers, even AI. If you build an AI to learn a language and it doesn’t seem to be able to do so, there’s a bug in the system.
That’s answered in the second sentence of the quote you chose...
Ok. Now, if said grad student did come to the thesis adviser, but their motivation was that they’ve been taught from a very young age that they should do math. Is there initiative?
It seems that a large part of the disagreement is implicit premises here. You seem to be focused on very narrow AI, when the entire issue is what happens when one doesn’t have narrow AI but have AI that has most capabilities that humans have. Let’s set aside whether or not we should build such AIs and whether or not they are possible. Assuming that such entities are possible, do you or do you not think there’s a risk of the AI getting out of control.
Either there’s a miscommunication here or there’s a misunderstanding about how evolution works. An organism that puts its own survival over reproducing is an evolutionary dead end. Historically, lots of humans didn’t want any children, but they didn’t have effective birth control methods, so in the ancestral environment there was minimal evolutionary incentive to remove that preference. It has only been recently that there is widespread and effective birth control. So, what you’ve said is one evolved desire overriding another would still seem to be a bug.
Not sure. You could argue both points in this situation.
Any AI can get out of control. I never denied that. My issue is with how that should be managed, not whether it can happen.
I suppose it would.
Ah. In that case, there’s actually very minimal disagreement.