Here’s a comment that I think should be defended, on the ideal LW (which maybe it would’ve anyway in the natural course of affairs; it’s only been up for a few hours and it’s only been downvoted by a few people). It’s a bit snide/aggressive in its framing, but it raises a completely valid point, and if the snideness is a problem it can be objected to separately from the content.
In response, I’d say yeah—I clearly overreached in my phrasing. What I actually meant to convey was something like, different from the majority of “typical” places on the internet. I wanted to convey the sense that LW ought to be something like 98th percentile on this axis, but I was incorrect to imply that the ideal LW would be at the absolute far right tail of all websites and discussion fora, and didn’t actually mean that in the first place.
FYI, AFAICT I am the only person who downvoted it (bringing it from 3 to −3). As long as we’re having the meta-est of conversations, I wanted to talk about why.
The single most common criticism I hear from good writers on LW, is that the comments feel nitpicky in a way that isn’t actually helpful, and that you have to defend your points against a hostile-seeming crowd rather than collaboratively building something.
This comment seemed to be doing two things in that direction: a) it was bit aggressive as you noted, b) the point it was making just… didn’t seem very relevant. Yes, there are places on the internet aspiring to similar things as LW. But a reasonable read on your statement was “most of the internet isn’t trying to do this much at all, LW is different.” While some humility is nice, I really don’t understand your point better now that you’ve rephrased it to the 98th percentile thing.
So the main impact of this sort of comment is both to spend time on things that don’t matter much, and increase the latent hostility of the thread, and I think people don’t appreciate enough how bad that is for discourse. Both of that seem like something to me that is better silently downvoted than engaged with.
Oh, yeah, there’s maybe another crux between us—while I buy the argument that a policy of silently downvoting this class of comment may be more sustainable in the long run, I don’t share your instincts re: demon threads (to the point that I’m relatively dismayed that that label for them is starting to stick, because it implies hopelessness or helplessness or external-locus-of-control that I don’t feel). My approach to threads like those is maybe best summed up by “Let the Light win, and if trouble comes of it … let the Light win again.”
EDIT: Also, I’m pretty sure other up- and downvotes are in the mix by now, because I’ve seen it at a lot of other scores in the interim. I think −4 and 0 and −6.
the comments feel nitpicky in a way that isn’t actually helpful
If you see a comment that is technically correct but nitpicky and unhelpful, you could reply “this is technically correct, but nitpicky and unhelpful”. Downvoting correct statements just looks bad.
the point it was making just… didn’t seem very relevant.
I think there is a more charitable reading of TAG’s comment. Not only are there places in the internet aspiring to find the truth, there are, in fact, very few places that are not aspiring to find it. The point isn’t that there are more places like LW. The point is that “truth seeking” isn’t the distinguishing characteristic of LW.
and that you have to defend your points against a hostile-seeming crowd rather than collaboratively building something.
I honestly believe that attacking people’s points is a good way to learn something. I don’t know what you mean by “collaboratively building something”, I’d appreciate examples where that has happened in the past. I suspect that you’re overestimating how valuable or persistent this “something” is.
increase the latent hostility of the thread, and I think people don’t appreciate enough how bad that is for discourse.
I don’t think you’ve provided strong arguments that it actually is bad for discourse. Yes, demon threads don’t usually go anywhere, but regular threads don’t usually go anywhere either. And people can actually learn from demon threads, even if they’re not willing to admit it right away. I certainly have.
Not only are there places in the internet aspiring to find the truth, there are, in fact, very few places that are not aspiring to find it.
?? If you look at the Alexa top 50 sites for the US, how many of them are about aspiring to find the truth? I count between 3 and 4 (Google, Wikipedia, and Bing for sure, Wikia maybe).
I think you’re confusing “aspiring to find truth” with “finding truth”. Your crackpot uncle who writes facebook posts about how Trump eats babies isn’t doing it because he loves lies and hates truth, he does it because he has poor epistemic hygiene.
So in this view almost every discussion forum and almost every newspaper is doing their best to find the truth, even if they have some other goals as well.
Also, of course, I’m only counting places that deal with anything like propositions at all, and excluding things like jokes, memes, porn, shopping, etc, which is a large fraction of the internet.
Here’s a comment that I think should be defended, on the ideal LW (which maybe it would’ve anyway in the natural course of affairs; it’s only been up for a few hours and it’s only been downvoted by a few people). It’s a bit snide/aggressive in its framing, but it raises a completely valid point, and if the snideness is a problem it can be objected to separately from the content.
In response, I’d say yeah—I clearly overreached in my phrasing. What I actually meant to convey was something like, different from the majority of “typical” places on the internet. I wanted to convey the sense that LW ought to be something like 98th percentile on this axis, but I was incorrect to imply that the ideal LW would be at the absolute far right tail of all websites and discussion fora, and didn’t actually mean that in the first place.
FYI, AFAICT I am the only person who downvoted it (bringing it from 3 to −3). As long as we’re having the meta-est of conversations, I wanted to talk about why.
The single most common criticism I hear from good writers on LW, is that the comments feel nitpicky in a way that isn’t actually helpful, and that you have to defend your points against a hostile-seeming crowd rather than collaboratively building something.
This comment seemed to be doing two things in that direction: a) it was bit aggressive as you noted, b) the point it was making just… didn’t seem very relevant. Yes, there are places on the internet aspiring to similar things as LW. But a reasonable read on your statement was “most of the internet isn’t trying to do this much at all, LW is different.” While some humility is nice, I really don’t understand your point better now that you’ve rephrased it to the 98th percentile thing.
So the main impact of this sort of comment is both to spend time on things that don’t matter much, and increase the latent hostility of the thread, and I think people don’t appreciate enough how bad that is for discourse. Both of that seem like something to me that is better silently downvoted than engaged with.
Oh, yeah, there’s maybe another crux between us—while I buy the argument that a policy of silently downvoting this class of comment may be more sustainable in the long run, I don’t share your instincts re: demon threads (to the point that I’m relatively dismayed that that label for them is starting to stick, because it implies hopelessness or helplessness or external-locus-of-control that I don’t feel). My approach to threads like those is maybe best summed up by “Let the Light win, and if trouble comes of it … let the Light win again.”
EDIT: Also, I’m pretty sure other up- and downvotes are in the mix by now, because I’ve seen it at a lot of other scores in the interim. I think −4 and 0 and −6.
If you see a comment that is technically correct but nitpicky and unhelpful, you could reply “this is technically correct, but nitpicky and unhelpful”. Downvoting correct statements just looks bad.
I think there is a more charitable reading of TAG’s comment. Not only are there places in the internet aspiring to find the truth, there are, in fact, very few places that are not aspiring to find it. The point isn’t that there are more places like LW. The point is that “truth seeking” isn’t the distinguishing characteristic of LW.
I honestly believe that attacking people’s points is a good way to learn something. I don’t know what you mean by “collaboratively building something”, I’d appreciate examples where that has happened in the past. I suspect that you’re overestimating how valuable or persistent this “something” is.
I don’t think you’ve provided strong arguments that it actually is bad for discourse. Yes, demon threads don’t usually go anywhere, but regular threads don’t usually go anywhere either. And people can actually learn from demon threads, even if they’re not willing to admit it right away. I certainly have.
?? If you look at the Alexa top 50 sites for the US, how many of them are about aspiring to find the truth? I count between 3 and 4 (Google, Wikipedia, and Bing for sure, Wikia maybe).
You forgot amazon.com and walmart.com, which have the tightest instrumental rationality feedback loops of them all.
</banter>
I think you’re confusing “aspiring to find truth” with “finding truth”. Your crackpot uncle who writes facebook posts about how Trump eats babies isn’t doing it because he loves lies and hates truth, he does it because he has poor epistemic hygiene.
So in this view almost every discussion forum and almost every newspaper is doing their best to find the truth, even if they have some other goals as well.
Also, of course, I’m only counting places that deal with anything like propositions at all, and excluding things like jokes, memes, porn, shopping, etc, which is a large fraction of the internet.