Because it ties in to the earlier point you mentioned about demand driving technological development. What is there more demand for than the return of departed loved ones? Simulationism was one of two means of retrieving the necessary information to reconstitute a person btw, though I have added a third, much more limited method elsewhere in these comments (mapping the atomic configuration of the still living).
>”You are talking about them in past tense as if they have already achieved their claimed capabilities. I have no doubt that practical mars vehicles and driverless cars will be developed eventually, but I am skeptical that the hard parts of those problems have already been solved.”
Given the larger point of the article is that technological resurrection is a physically possible, foreseeable development, when specifically any of this is achieved will be irrelevant to people living now, if we will indeed live again. I’m reminded of the old joke, “What do we want? Time travel! When do we want it? It’s irrelevant!”
What is there more demand for than the return of departed loved ones?
Well, as you yourself outline in the article people have basically just accepted death. How much funding is currently going into curing aging? (Which seems to be a much lower hanging fruit currently than any kind of resurrection.) Much less than should be IMO.
when specifically any of this is achieved will be irrelevant to people living now, if we will indeed live again.
Reversing entropy is a very shaky idea, as other comments already outlined in more detail.
The simulation hypothesis seems like a hotly debated topic, but there does not seem to be an accepted way to even put probabilities on it, depending on your priors you can get answers anywhere between 0 and 1.
Also taking this to its logical conclusion just seems nonsensical. If we will be resurrected later anyway, why care about anything at all right now? I think much of EY’s writing on many-worlds can be applied here. (The idea of being resurrected in many different possible worlds seems quite similar.)
>”Well, as you yourself outline in the article people have basically just accepted death. How much funding is currently going into curing aging? (Which seems to be a much lower hanging fruit currently than any kind of resurrection.) Much less than should be IMO.”
A good point. I’m not sure how or if this would change. My suspicion is that as the technology necessary to remake people gets closer to readiness, developed for other reasons, the public’s defeatism will diminish. They dare not hope for a second life unless it’s either incontrovertibly possible and soon to be realized, or they’re a religious fantasist for whom credibility is an unimportant attribute of beliefs.
>”The key word here is “if”.
A hypothetical the entire article is dedicated to supporting
>”If we will be resurrected later anyway, why care about anything at all right now?”
Because the resurrection cannot happen if we go extinct before the means is developed, very obviously. It requires the continued survival of humanity, and of civilization, to support continued technological development. I would say I am shocked you would ask such a question but this is not my first rodeo.
Rather than reason through ideas only far enough to identify potential problems and then stop, assuming they’re show-stoppers, please continue at least one or two further steps. Make some effort to first answer your own objections before posing them to me as if I didn’t think of them and as if they are impassable barriers. You needn’t assume others are correct in order to steelman their arguments.
>”Also taking this to its logical conclusion just seems nonsensical.”
If the reasoning goes A->B->C->D->E but you stopped at B because it seemed potentially problematic, then everything from B to E looks like an indefensible leap. This is not a problem with the reasoning, but of incomplete analysis by someone disinclined to take seriously ideas they did not personally conclude to.
Edit: It’s also possible I’m guilty of this in the event you were referring to far future resurrection of all intelligent species carried out by machines not originating from Earth
If the reasoning goes A->B->C->D->E but you stopped at B because it seemed potentially problematic, then everything from B to E looks like an indefensible leap. This is not a problem with the reasoning [...]
It is. An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.
Sorry if it came across that way, I did not stop at the first possible objection, I am specifically questioning the parts that seem the weakest to me. (For the argument regarding bringing back past people, indeed starship and self-driving are not too relevant. Reversing entropy and simulation absolutely are.)
I don’t have any issues with the idea of resurrecting people based on a sufficiently detailed scan. (You write that “There’s a lot of people today who speculate that some kind of weirdness happens in the brain that can never be reduced to physics.”, but I don’t think anyone (on LW at least) would seriously argue that human brains can’t be simulated for some weird reason.)
The idea that we could recover past states of the universe in sufficient detail is by far the most suspicious claim, and it is central to the idea of bringing back past people, that’s why I was addressing that specifically.
in the event you were referring to far future resurrection of all intelligent species carried out by machines not originating from Earth
Well you suggest in the article that our simulators would resurrect us, am I missing something?
>”It is. An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.”
If the conclusion hinges upon that link, sure.
>”Reversing entropy and simulation absolutely are.”
You do not need to reverse entropy to remake a person. Otherwise we are reversing entropy every time we manufacture copies of something which has broken. Even the “whole universe scan” method does not actually wind back the clock, except in sim.
>”Well you suggest in the article that our simulators would resurrect us, am I missing something?”
Yes. If every intelligent species takes the attitude that “it’s not my problem, someone else will take care of it” then nobody does. We cannot know for sure how many intelligent, technologically capable species exist. In the absence of confirmation, the only way we can be sure that a technological means of resurrection will be developed is if we do it. If we’re not alone, nothing is lost except that we have reinvented the wheel.
>”The idea that we could recover past states of the universe in sufficient detail is by far the most suspicious claim, and it is central to the idea of bringing back past people, that’s why I was addressing that specifically.”
I agree actually and this is why I furnished two methods, although there’s a third method which can also remake people based on scans of the still living, it’s just considerably more limited than the other two. My central point being that physics permits such a technology, there exists demand for it, so it is reasonable to expect it will exist in some form. That is by itself remarkable enough, for people outside of LessWrong anyway.
Because it ties in to the earlier point you mentioned about demand driving technological development. What is there more demand for than the return of departed loved ones? Simulationism was one of two means of retrieving the necessary information to reconstitute a person btw, though I have added a third, much more limited method elsewhere in these comments (mapping the atomic configuration of the still living).
>”You are talking about them in past tense as if they have already achieved their claimed capabilities. I have no doubt that practical mars vehicles and driverless cars will be developed eventually, but I am skeptical that the hard parts of those problems have already been solved.”
Given the larger point of the article is that technological resurrection is a physically possible, foreseeable development, when specifically any of this is achieved will be irrelevant to people living now, if we will indeed live again. I’m reminded of the old joke, “What do we want? Time travel! When do we want it? It’s irrelevant!”
Well, as you yourself outline in the article people have basically just accepted death. How much funding is currently going into curing aging? (Which seems to be a much lower hanging fruit currently than any kind of resurrection.) Much less than should be IMO.
Sorry, but this just seems like a generic counterargument. The key word here is “if”.
Reversing entropy is a very shaky idea, as other comments already outlined in more detail.
The simulation hypothesis seems like a hotly debated topic, but there does not seem to be an accepted way to even put probabilities on it, depending on your priors you can get answers anywhere between 0 and 1.
Also taking this to its logical conclusion just seems nonsensical. If we will be resurrected later anyway, why care about anything at all right now? I think much of EY’s writing on many-worlds can be applied here. (The idea of being resurrected in many different possible worlds seems quite similar.)
>”Well, as you yourself outline in the article people have basically just accepted death. How much funding is currently going into curing aging? (Which seems to be a much lower hanging fruit currently than any kind of resurrection.) Much less than should be IMO.”
A good point. I’m not sure how or if this would change. My suspicion is that as the technology necessary to remake people gets closer to readiness, developed for other reasons, the public’s defeatism will diminish. They dare not hope for a second life unless it’s either incontrovertibly possible and soon to be realized, or they’re a religious fantasist for whom credibility is an unimportant attribute of beliefs.
>”The key word here is “if”.
A hypothetical the entire article is dedicated to supporting
>”If we will be resurrected later anyway, why care about anything at all right now?”
Because the resurrection cannot happen if we go extinct before the means is developed, very obviously. It requires the continued survival of humanity, and of civilization, to support continued technological development. I would say I am shocked you would ask such a question but this is not my first rodeo.
Rather than reason through ideas only far enough to identify potential problems and then stop, assuming they’re show-stoppers, please continue at least one or two further steps. Make some effort to first answer your own objections before posing them to me as if I didn’t think of them and as if they are impassable barriers. You needn’t assume others are correct in order to steelman their arguments.
>”Also taking this to its logical conclusion just seems nonsensical.”
If the reasoning goes A->B->C->D->E but you stopped at B because it seemed potentially problematic, then everything from B to E looks like an indefensible leap. This is not a problem with the reasoning, but of incomplete analysis by someone disinclined to take seriously ideas they did not personally conclude to.
Edit: It’s also possible I’m guilty of this in the event you were referring to far future resurrection of all intelligent species carried out by machines not originating from Earth
It is. An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.
Sorry if it came across that way, I did not stop at the first possible objection, I am specifically questioning the parts that seem the weakest to me. (For the argument regarding bringing back past people, indeed starship and self-driving are not too relevant. Reversing entropy and simulation absolutely are.)
I don’t have any issues with the idea of resurrecting people based on a sufficiently detailed scan. (You write that “There’s a lot of people today who speculate that some kind of weirdness happens in the brain that can never be reduced to physics.”, but I don’t think anyone (on LW at least) would seriously argue that human brains can’t be simulated for some weird reason.)
The idea that we could recover past states of the universe in sufficient detail is by far the most suspicious claim, and it is central to the idea of bringing back past people, that’s why I was addressing that specifically.
Well you suggest in the article that our simulators would resurrect us, am I missing something?
>”It is. An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.”
If the conclusion hinges upon that link, sure.
>”Reversing entropy and simulation absolutely are.”
You do not need to reverse entropy to remake a person. Otherwise we are reversing entropy every time we manufacture copies of something which has broken. Even the “whole universe scan” method does not actually wind back the clock, except in sim.
>”Well you suggest in the article that our simulators would resurrect us, am I missing something?”
Yes. If every intelligent species takes the attitude that “it’s not my problem, someone else will take care of it” then nobody does. We cannot know for sure how many intelligent, technologically capable species exist. In the absence of confirmation, the only way we can be sure that a technological means of resurrection will be developed is if we do it. If we’re not alone, nothing is lost except that we have reinvented the wheel.
>”The idea that we could recover past states of the universe in sufficient detail is by far the most suspicious claim, and it is central to the idea of bringing back past people, that’s why I was addressing that specifically.”
I agree actually and this is why I furnished two methods, although there’s a third method which can also remake people based on scans of the still living, it’s just considerably more limited than the other two. My central point being that physics permits such a technology, there exists demand for it, so it is reasonable to expect it will exist in some form. That is by itself remarkable enough, for people outside of LessWrong anyway.