I was wondering if anyone had any opinions/observations they would be would be willing to share about Unitarian Universalism. My fiancee is an atheist and a Unitarian Universalist, and I have been going to congregation with her for the last 10 months. I enjoy the experience. It is relaxing for me, and a source of interesting discussions. However, I am trying to decide if my morality has a problem with allying myself this community. I am leaning towards no. I feel like they are doing a lot of good by providing a stepping stone out of traditional religion for many people. I am however slightly concerned about what effect this community might have on my future children. I would love to debate this issue with anyone who is willing, and I think that would be very helpful for me.
The UU “Seven Principles and Purposes” seem like a piece of virtue ethics. If you don’t mind this particular brand of it, then why not.
From Wikipedia:
“We come from One origin, we are headed to One destiny, but we cannot know completely what these are, so we are to focus on making this life better for all of us, and we use reason when we can, to find our way. ”
If you discard the ornamental fluff in this “philosophy” and “focus on making this life better for all of us”, then it’s as good a guideline as any.
As I said in responding to another comment, this is the part of UU that I relate to. However, the problem is that while UUs might be slightly above average rationality, “we can use reason when we can” means that beliefs come from thinking for yourself as opposed to reading e.g. the bible, and the stuff they come up with by thinking for themselves is usually not all that great by my standards. I am worried that I am giving UU too much credit because they happen to use the word “reason,” when in reality they mean something very different than what I mean.
the stuff they come up with by thinking for themselves is usually not all that great by my standards
They are just humans, aren’t they? I am afraid that at this moment it is impossible to assemble a large group of people who would all think on LW-level. Not including obvious bullshit, or at least not making it a core of group beliefs, is already a pretty decent result for a large group of humans.
Perhaps one day CFAR will make a curricullum that can replicate rationality quickly (at least on suitable individuals) and then we can try to expand rationality to mass level. Until then, having a group without obviously insane people in power is probably the best you can get.
I am worried that I am giving UU too much credit because they happen to use the word “reason,”
You already reflected on this, so just: don’t emotionally expect what is not realistic. They are never going to use reason as you define it. But the good news is that they will not punish you for using reason. Which is the best you can expect from a religious group.
You inspired me to google whether there are UU in Slovakia. None found, although there are some in the neighbor countries: Czech, Hungary.
I wonder whether it would be possible to create a local branch here, to draw people, who just want to feel something religious but don’t want to belong to a strict organization, away from Catholicism (which in my opinion has huge negative impacts on the country). There seem to be enough such people here, but they are not organized, so they usually stay within the churches of their parents.
The problem is, I am not the right person to start something like this, because I don’t feel any religious need; for me the UU would be completely boring and useless. I am not sure if I could pretend interest at least for long enough to collect a group of people, make them interested in the idea, put them into contact with neighbor UUs, and then silently sneak away. ;-)
Also, I suspect the religion is not about ideas, but about organized community. (For example, the only reason you are interested in UU is because your fiancee is. And your fiancee probably has similar reasons, etc.) Starting a new religious community where no support exists, would need a few people willing to sacrifice a lot of time and work—in other words, true believers. Later, when the community exists, further recruitment should be easier.
Well, at least this is the first social engineering project I feel I could have higher than 1% chance of doing successfully, if I decided to. (Level 3 of Yudkowsky Ambition Scale in a local scope?)
Unitarian Universalism is different from Unitarianism. UU is basically a spin-off of Unitarianism from when they combined with Universalism in 1961 in North America. As a result, there are very few UU churches outside of NA.
Unitarianism is on average more Christian than UU, and there exist some UU congregations that also have a Christian slant. (The one I was talking about is not one of them) I have also heard that some UU churches are considerably more tolerant of everything other than Christianity than they are of Christianity. (Probably because their members were escaping Christianity) The views change from congregation to congregation because they are decided from the bottom up from the local congregants.
The UUA has free resources, such as transcribed sermons you could read, for people who wanted to start a congregation.
I think I gain some stuff from it that is not directly from my fiancee. I don’t know if it is enough to continue going on my own. It is a community that roughly follows strategy 1 of the belief signalling trilemma, which I think is nice to be in some of the time. The sermons are usually way too vague, but have produced interesting thoughts when I added details to them on my own and then analyzed my version. There is also (respectful) debating, which I think I find fun regardless of who I am debating with. I like how it enables people to share significant highs or lows in their life, so the community can help them. There are pot-lucks and game nights, and courses on philosophy and religions. There is also singing, which I am not so crazy about, but my fiancee loves.
They are reaching many of the wrong conclusions. I think this might be because their definition of “use reason” is just to think about their beliefs, which is not enough. When I say “use reason,” I mean thinking about my beliefs in a specific way. That specific way is something that I think a lot of us have roughly in common on less wrong, and it would take to long to describe all the parts of it now. To point out a specific example, one UU said to me “There are some mysteries we can never get answers to, like what happens when we die,” and then later “I am a firm believer in reincarnation, because I have had experiences where I felt my past lives.” I never questioned to her that she had those experiences, and argued a bit and was able to get her to change her first statement, because reincarnation experiences were evidence against it, which I thought was an improvement. However, not noticing how contradictory these beliefs were is not something I would call “reason.”
Perhaps what is bothering me is a difference in cognitive ability, and UUs version of “reason” is as much as I can expect from the average person. Or, perhaps these are people who are genuinely interested in being rational, and would be very supportive of learning how, but have not yet learned. It could also be that they just want to say that they are using “reason.”
Not much. That is a good idea. I was considering hosting a workshop on rationality through the church. If I ever go through with it, that will probably be part of it. My parents’ UU church had a class on what QM teaches us about theology and philosophy.
I’m not really invested enough in the question to debate it, but I know plenty of atheists (both with and without children) who are active members of UU churches because they get more of the things they value from a social community there than they do anywhere else, and this seems entirely sensible to me. What effects on your future children are you concerned about?
I am concerned that they will treat supernatural claims as reasonable. I consider myself rational enough to be able to put up with some of the crazy stuff many UU individuals believe (beliefs not shared by the community). I am worried that my children might believe them, and even more worried that might not look at beliefs critically enough.
Yes, they will treat supernatural claims as reasonable, and expect you (and your kids) to treat them that way as well, at least in public, and condemn you (and your kids) for being rude if you (they) don’t.
If you live in the United States, the odds are high that your child’s school will do the same thing.
My suggestion would be that you teach your children how to operate sensibly in such an environment, rather than try to keep them out of such environments, but of course parenting advice from strangers on the Internet is pretty much worthless.
Yes, they will treat supernatural claims as reasonable, and expect you (and your kids) to treat them that way as well, at least in public, and condemn you (and your kids) for being rude if you (they) don’t.
I actually do not think that is true. They will treat supernatural claims as reasonable, but would not condemn me for not treating them as reasonable. They might condemn me for being avoidably rude, but I don’t even know about that.
We actually plan on homeschooling, but that is not for the purpose of keeping kids out of an insane environment as much as trying to teach them actually important stuff.
If your elementary-schooler goes around insistently informing the other little kids that Santa isn’t real, you will likely be getting an unhappy phone call from the school, never mind the religious bits that the adults actually believe.
However, I am trying to decide if my morality has a problem with allying myself this community.
What’s your moral system? If you get value from the community it’s probably more moral to focus your efforts on donating more for bed nets than on the effect that you have on the world through being a member of that community.
I think it is not productive to analyze anything as being moral by comparing it to working for money for bed nets. Most everything fails.
I think I might have made a mistake in saying this was a moral issue. I think it is more of an identity issue. I the the consequences for the world of me being Unitarian are minimal. Most of the effect is on me. I think the more accurate questions I am trying to answer are:
Are Unitarians good under my morals? Do their shared values agree with mine enough that I should identify as being one?
I think the reason this is not a instrumental issue for me, and rather an epistemic issue, is because I believe the fact that I will continue to go to congregation is already decided. It is a fun bonding time which sparks lots of interesting philosophical discussion. If I were not in my current relationship, I would probably bring that question back on the table.
I realize that this does not change the fact that the answer is heavily dependent on my moral system, so I will try to comment on that with things that are specific to UU.
I generally agree with the 7 principles of UU, with far more emphasis on “A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.” However, these principles are not particularly controversial, and I think most people would agree with most of them. The defining part of UU, I think, is the strategy of “Let’s agree to disagree on the metaethics and metaphysics, and focus on the morals themselves which are what matters.” I feel like this could be a good thing to do some of the time. Ignore the things that we don’t understand and agree on, and work on making the world better using the values we do understand and agree on. However, I am concerned that perhaps the UU philosophy is not just to ignore the metaethics and metaphysics temporarily so we can work together, but rather to not care about these issues and not be bothered by the fact that we appear confused. This I do not approve of. These are important questions, and you don’t know if what you don’t know can’t hurt you.
They are important because they are confusing. Of all the things that might possibly cause a huge change to my decision making, I think understanding open questions about anthropic reasoning is probably at the top of the list. I potentially lose a lot by not pushing these topics further.
Of all the things that might possibly cause a huge change to my decision making, I think understanding open questions about anthropic reasoning is probably at the top of the list.
For most people I don’t think that meta ethical considerations have a huge effect on their day to day decision making.
Metaphysics seems interesting. Do you think that you might start believing in paranormal stuff if you spend more effort on investigating metaphysical questions? What other possible changes in your metaphysical position could you imagine that would have a huge effects on your decision making?
I potentially lose a lot by not pushing these topics further.
Going to UU won’t stop you from discussing those concepts on LessWrong.
I’m personally part of diverse groups and don’t expect any one group to fulfill all my needs.
I do not think that I will start believing in paranormal stuff. I do not know what changes might arise from changes in my metaphysical position. I was not trying to single out these things as particularly important as much as I am just afraid of all things that I don’t know.
Going to UU won’t stop you from discussing those concepts on LessWrong.
I’m personally part of diverse groups and don’t expect any one group to fulfill all my needs.
This is good advice. My current picture of UU is that it has a lot of problems, most of which are not problems for me personally, since I am also a rational person and in LW. I think UU and LW are the only groups which I am actively a part of other than my career. I wonder what other viewpoints I am missing out on.
I was wondering if anyone had any opinions/observations they would be would be willing to share about Unitarian Universalism. My fiancee is an atheist and a Unitarian Universalist, and I have been going to congregation with her for the last 10 months. I enjoy the experience. It is relaxing for me, and a source of interesting discussions. However, I am trying to decide if my morality has a problem with allying myself this community. I am leaning towards no. I feel like they are doing a lot of good by providing a stepping stone out of traditional religion for many people. I am however slightly concerned about what effect this community might have on my future children. I would love to debate this issue with anyone who is willing, and I think that would be very helpful for me.
The UU “Seven Principles and Purposes” seem like a piece of virtue ethics. If you don’t mind this particular brand of it, then why not.
From Wikipedia:
If you discard the ornamental fluff in this “philosophy” and “focus on making this life better for all of us”, then it’s as good a guideline as any.
As I said in responding to another comment, this is the part of UU that I relate to. However, the problem is that while UUs might be slightly above average rationality, “we can use reason when we can” means that beliefs come from thinking for yourself as opposed to reading e.g. the bible, and the stuff they come up with by thinking for themselves is usually not all that great by my standards. I am worried that I am giving UU too much credit because they happen to use the word “reason,” when in reality they mean something very different than what I mean.
They are just humans, aren’t they? I am afraid that at this moment it is impossible to assemble a large group of people who would all think on LW-level. Not including obvious bullshit, or at least not making it a core of group beliefs, is already a pretty decent result for a large group of humans.
Perhaps one day CFAR will make a curricullum that can replicate rationality quickly (at least on suitable individuals) and then we can try to expand rationality to mass level. Until then, having a group without obviously insane people in power is probably the best you can get.
You already reflected on this, so just: don’t emotionally expect what is not realistic. They are never going to use reason as you define it. But the good news is that they will not punish you for using reason. Which is the best you can expect from a religious group.
I found this comment very helpful. Thanks.
You inspired me to google whether there are UU in Slovakia. None found, although there are some in the neighbor countries: Czech, Hungary.
I wonder whether it would be possible to create a local branch here, to draw people, who just want to feel something religious but don’t want to belong to a strict organization, away from Catholicism (which in my opinion has huge negative impacts on the country). There seem to be enough such people here, but they are not organized, so they usually stay within the churches of their parents.
The problem is, I am not the right person to start something like this, because I don’t feel any religious need; for me the UU would be completely boring and useless. I am not sure if I could pretend interest at least for long enough to collect a group of people, make them interested in the idea, put them into contact with neighbor UUs, and then silently sneak away. ;-)
Also, I suspect the religion is not about ideas, but about organized community. (For example, the only reason you are interested in UU is because your fiancee is. And your fiancee probably has similar reasons, etc.) Starting a new religious community where no support exists, would need a few people willing to sacrifice a lot of time and work—in other words, true believers. Later, when the community exists, further recruitment should be easier.
Well, at least this is the first social engineering project I feel I could have higher than 1% chance of doing successfully, if I decided to. (Level 3 of Yudkowsky Ambition Scale in a local scope?)
Here are some things you should know:
Unitarian Universalism is different from Unitarianism. UU is basically a spin-off of Unitarianism from when they combined with Universalism in 1961 in North America. As a result, there are very few UU churches outside of NA.
Unitarianism is on average more Christian than UU, and there exist some UU congregations that also have a Christian slant. (The one I was talking about is not one of them) I have also heard that some UU churches are considerably more tolerant of everything other than Christianity than they are of Christianity. (Probably because their members were escaping Christianity) The views change from congregation to congregation because they are decided from the bottom up from the local congregants.
The UUA has free resources, such as transcribed sermons you could read, for people who wanted to start a congregation.
I think I gain some stuff from it that is not directly from my fiancee. I don’t know if it is enough to continue going on my own. It is a community that roughly follows strategy 1 of the belief signalling trilemma, which I think is nice to be in some of the time. The sermons are usually way too vague, but have produced interesting thoughts when I added details to them on my own and then analyzed my version. There is also (respectful) debating, which I think I find fun regardless of who I am debating with. I like how it enables people to share significant highs or lows in their life, so the community can help them. There are pot-lucks and game nights, and courses on philosophy and religions. There is also singing, which I am not so crazy about, but my fiancee loves.
What do you mean and what do they mean by “reason”? If you are not sure, maybe it’s something to ask at the next meeting.
They are reaching many of the wrong conclusions. I think this might be because their definition of “use reason” is just to think about their beliefs, which is not enough. When I say “use reason,” I mean thinking about my beliefs in a specific way. That specific way is something that I think a lot of us have roughly in common on less wrong, and it would take to long to describe all the parts of it now. To point out a specific example, one UU said to me “There are some mysteries we can never get answers to, like what happens when we die,” and then later “I am a firm believer in reincarnation, because I have had experiences where I felt my past lives.” I never questioned to her that she had those experiences, and argued a bit and was able to get her to change her first statement, because reincarnation experiences were evidence against it, which I thought was an improvement. However, not noticing how contradictory these beliefs were is not something I would call “reason.”
Perhaps what is bothering me is a difference in cognitive ability, and UUs version of “reason” is as much as I can expect from the average person. Or, perhaps these are people who are genuinely interested in being rational, and would be very supportive of learning how, but have not yet learned. It could also be that they just want to say that they are using “reason.”
Do you guys discuss Effective Altruism? It could be one way to inject a bit more reason.
Not much. That is a good idea. I was considering hosting a workshop on rationality through the church. If I ever go through with it, that will probably be part of it. My parents’ UU church had a class on what QM teaches us about theology and philosophy.
I’m not really invested enough in the question to debate it, but I know plenty of atheists (both with and without children) who are active members of UU churches because they get more of the things they value from a social community there than they do anywhere else, and this seems entirely sensible to me. What effects on your future children are you concerned about?
I am concerned that they will treat supernatural claims as reasonable. I consider myself rational enough to be able to put up with some of the crazy stuff many UU individuals believe (beliefs not shared by the community). I am worried that my children might believe them, and even more worried that might not look at beliefs critically enough.
Yes, they will treat supernatural claims as reasonable, and expect you (and your kids) to treat them that way as well, at least in public, and condemn you (and your kids) for being rude if you (they) don’t.
If you live in the United States, the odds are high that your child’s school will do the same thing.
My suggestion would be that you teach your children how to operate sensibly in such an environment, rather than try to keep them out of such environments, but of course parenting advice from strangers on the Internet is pretty much worthless.
I actually do not think that is true. They will treat supernatural claims as reasonable, but would not condemn me for not treating them as reasonable. They might condemn me for being avoidably rude, but I don’t even know about that.
We actually plan on homeschooling, but that is not for the purpose of keeping kids out of an insane environment as much as trying to teach them actually important stuff.
I do, however, agree with your advice.
If your elementary-schooler goes around insistently informing the other little kids that Santa isn’t real, you will likely be getting an unhappy phone call from the school, never mind the religious bits that the adults actually believe.
Good thing we are homeschooling then!
What’s your moral system? If you get value from the community it’s probably more moral to focus your efforts on donating more for bed nets than on the effect that you have on the world through being a member of that community.
Wouldn’t it be nice if I understood that?
I think it is not productive to analyze anything as being moral by comparing it to working for money for bed nets. Most everything fails.
I think I might have made a mistake in saying this was a moral issue. I think it is more of an identity issue. I the the consequences for the world of me being Unitarian are minimal. Most of the effect is on me. I think the more accurate questions I am trying to answer are:
Are Unitarians good under my morals? Do their shared values agree with mine enough that I should identify as being one?
I think the reason this is not a instrumental issue for me, and rather an epistemic issue, is because I believe the fact that I will continue to go to congregation is already decided. It is a fun bonding time which sparks lots of interesting philosophical discussion. If I were not in my current relationship, I would probably bring that question back on the table.
I realize that this does not change the fact that the answer is heavily dependent on my moral system, so I will try to comment on that with things that are specific to UU.
I generally agree with the 7 principles of UU, with far more emphasis on “A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.” However, these principles are not particularly controversial, and I think most people would agree with most of them. The defining part of UU, I think, is the strategy of “Let’s agree to disagree on the metaethics and metaphysics, and focus on the morals themselves which are what matters.” I feel like this could be a good thing to do some of the time. Ignore the things that we don’t understand and agree on, and work on making the world better using the values we do understand and agree on. However, I am concerned that perhaps the UU philosophy is not just to ignore the metaethics and metaphysics temporarily so we can work together, but rather to not care about these issues and not be bothered by the fact that we appear confused. This I do not approve of. These are important questions, and you don’t know if what you don’t know can’t hurt you.
Why are metaphysics important?
Why are metaethics important?
They are important because they are confusing. Of all the things that might possibly cause a huge change to my decision making, I think understanding open questions about anthropic reasoning is probably at the top of the list. I potentially lose a lot by not pushing these topics further.
For most people I don’t think that meta ethical considerations have a huge effect on their day to day decision making.
Metaphysics seems interesting. Do you think that you might start believing in paranormal stuff if you spend more effort on investigating metaphysical questions? What other possible changes in your metaphysical position could you imagine that would have a huge effects on your decision making?
Going to UU won’t stop you from discussing those concepts on LessWrong.
I’m personally part of diverse groups and don’t expect any one group to fulfill all my needs.
I do not think that I will start believing in paranormal stuff. I do not know what changes might arise from changes in my metaphysical position. I was not trying to single out these things as particularly important as much as I am just afraid of all things that I don’t know.
This is good advice. My current picture of UU is that it has a lot of problems, most of which are not problems for me personally, since I am also a rational person and in LW. I think UU and LW are the only groups which I am actively a part of other than my career. I wonder what other viewpoints I am missing out on.