I’m glad, because you just lost a lot more. I do, indeed, think your outside view is deeply flawed, and I’ve just lost an illusion about how you in particular are likely to go about engaging in discourse. As an example, you just pulled a fifth-grader-bully trick in the quote
I’ve stopped engaging with them … and thus continue to engage with them
that was purposefully thickheaded in ignoring the whole point of that paragraph.
I didn’t think you would troll/deliberately mischaracterize, endorsedly, when not triggered-in-the-moment. That was firmly outside of my model of you. Now I know something new about you, and it will be useful to me in the future.
A funny thing about you: the more you talk, the worse you look. You started by presenting a very reasonable image—you listened and you expressed willingness to take into account people’s concerns. A bit more than a week passed and you’re already screaming at people IN ALL CAPS, calling them “a jerk” and dropping dark hints about knowledge that “will be useful to [you] in the future”. How is your stress tolerance? You are not performing well when people disagree with you.
You also try to be manipulative—not very successfully, mind you—by dispensing praise and criticism in order to gain the results you want. Since we’re are being all frank’n’all, my opinion of your adequacy as a leader went down a lot during this week—mostly because you wouldn’t shut up. I sincerely reiterate my advice to stop digging.
I don’t mind this whole “the more you talk, the worse you look” thing, because a) it’s symmetrical, and b) I’m entirely comfortable being seen for having exactly the preferences and principles I do have.
I’ve responded sharply, at this point, to exactly four people: a universally acknowledged troll, two people who started out clearly strawmanning me and being heavily anchored on negative opinions without justification, and now you, as you abandon standards in pursuit of scoring points.
I have not willfully misrepresented people, or immediately leapt to unfounded conclusions about their deep character, or engaged in cheap-trick point-scoring tactics against people who didn’t shoot first (with one exception that Alicorn called me out on, and I edited), or any of the other behaviors that I don’t reflectively endorse. I have certainly pulled none of the subpar junk that you’ve pulled in this subthread, and I’m proud to have opposed you as you’ve done it.
As I’ve noted elsewhere—I don’t much care about irrelevant opinions, and as people have demonstrated themselves to be below the bar of what I expect from a LWer and a rationalist, I correspondingly cease to mind what their overall judgment of me is. I generally try to judge how likely a person’s opinion is to closely correlate with truth and useful perspective, and while I hold my disregard with skepticism on the meta level, so as to not unfairly write people off, ultimately evidence is evidence. There are some people who simply demonstrate, fairly conclusively, that they aren’t going to play fair, think straight, update on evidence, etc., and are literally not worth listening to, in a VOI sense (though they may still be worth opposing in public).
I state again that something like 97% of the participants in this thread do seem like their opinions are likely to closely correlate with truth and provide useful perspective, and I’m grateful for the hours that total strangers have poured into helping me dodge mistakes. This project is something like 50% less likely to fail and 30% more likely to be really successful (relative to where it was a week ago) thanks to those contributions.
And sure—probably most of the neutral parties are shaking their heads somewhat—thinking things like “Duncan’s being too aggressive here” or “Duncan’s fighting fights not worth fighting” or “I wish he hadn’t posted X.” But that’s coin I’m spending deliberately, in open defense of things I think are worth defending. There’s no point in social capital if all you do is hoard it—at some point, people who’ve accrued ought to take risks holding lines that others can’t afford to defend. If I lose 5% of the respect that I’ve gained, but also meaningfully embolden others who were too hesitant to defend themselves against bullies by giving them the sense they’re not the only ones bothered by poor discourse, that’s a purchase I endorse. Freedom from trolls isn’t free—turns out even Lumifer will occasionally use Trump-style tactics, if they dislike you enough.
LOL. You smell SJW-ish. A white knight selflessly spending his social capital to defend the weak against the bullies. Against “Trump-style tactics” even! And, of course, you will not be denied for your cause is just.
You are clearly incapable of shutting up so this will be amusing.
So tell me more about things you think are worth defending—especially from the likes of me. Are we still talking about the mere forms of expression which you disapprove of or there’s some deeper ideology involved? Do you see me as lacking honor, or empathy, or proper morals, or the desire to remake the world, or something else?
I note for others reading this comment and wondering why it hasn’t been addressed that I’ve at least temporarily ceased replying to Lumifer and a couple of other posters on a policy level, for reasons surrounding norms of discourse, strawmanning, epistemic humility, presence or absence of good faith, etc. It’s possible that the above contains good questions or insights; if someone else chooses to repost/re-ask/rephrase sections of this, I’ll likely respond to them.
I note for others reading this comment and wondering why it hasn’t been addressed that I’ve at least temporarily ceased replying to Lumifer and a couple of other posters on a policy level, for reasons surrounding norms of discourse, strawmanning, epistemic humility, presence or absence of good faith, etc. It’s possible that the above contains good questions or insights; if someone else chooses to repost/re-ask/rephrase sections of this, I’ll likely respond to them.
It’s been a while since the last time I was officially added to the list of the Enemies of the People and… ritually cast out, I guess? This time there even a list of high crimes I’m guilty of—“reasons surrounding norms”. Woe is me!
I’m glad, because you just lost a lot more. I do, indeed, think your outside view is deeply flawed, and I’ve just lost an illusion about how you in particular are likely to go about engaging in discourse. As an example, you just pulled a fifth-grader-bully trick in the quote
that was purposefully thickheaded in ignoring the whole point of that paragraph.
I didn’t think you would troll/deliberately mischaracterize, endorsedly, when not triggered-in-the-moment. That was firmly outside of my model of you. Now I know something new about you, and it will be useful to me in the future.
A funny thing about you: the more you talk, the worse you look. You started by presenting a very reasonable image—you listened and you expressed willingness to take into account people’s concerns. A bit more than a week passed and you’re already screaming at people IN ALL CAPS, calling them “a jerk” and dropping dark hints about knowledge that “will be useful to [you] in the future”. How is your stress tolerance? You are not performing well when people disagree with you.
You also try to be manipulative—not very successfully, mind you—by dispensing praise and criticism in order to gain the results you want. Since we’re are being all frank’n’all, my opinion of your adequacy as a leader went down a lot during this week—mostly because you wouldn’t shut up. I sincerely reiterate my advice to stop digging.
I don’t mind this whole “the more you talk, the worse you look” thing, because a) it’s symmetrical, and b) I’m entirely comfortable being seen for having exactly the preferences and principles I do have.
I’ve responded sharply, at this point, to exactly four people: a universally acknowledged troll, two people who started out clearly strawmanning me and being heavily anchored on negative opinions without justification, and now you, as you abandon standards in pursuit of scoring points.
I have not willfully misrepresented people, or immediately leapt to unfounded conclusions about their deep character, or engaged in cheap-trick point-scoring tactics against people who didn’t shoot first (with one exception that Alicorn called me out on, and I edited), or any of the other behaviors that I don’t reflectively endorse. I have certainly pulled none of the subpar junk that you’ve pulled in this subthread, and I’m proud to have opposed you as you’ve done it.
As I’ve noted elsewhere—I don’t much care about irrelevant opinions, and as people have demonstrated themselves to be below the bar of what I expect from a LWer and a rationalist, I correspondingly cease to mind what their overall judgment of me is. I generally try to judge how likely a person’s opinion is to closely correlate with truth and useful perspective, and while I hold my disregard with skepticism on the meta level, so as to not unfairly write people off, ultimately evidence is evidence. There are some people who simply demonstrate, fairly conclusively, that they aren’t going to play fair, think straight, update on evidence, etc., and are literally not worth listening to, in a VOI sense (though they may still be worth opposing in public).
I state again that something like 97% of the participants in this thread do seem like their opinions are likely to closely correlate with truth and provide useful perspective, and I’m grateful for the hours that total strangers have poured into helping me dodge mistakes. This project is something like 50% less likely to fail and 30% more likely to be really successful (relative to where it was a week ago) thanks to those contributions.
And sure—probably most of the neutral parties are shaking their heads somewhat—thinking things like “Duncan’s being too aggressive here” or “Duncan’s fighting fights not worth fighting” or “I wish he hadn’t posted X.” But that’s coin I’m spending deliberately, in open defense of things I think are worth defending. There’s no point in social capital if all you do is hoard it—at some point, people who’ve accrued ought to take risks holding lines that others can’t afford to defend. If I lose 5% of the respect that I’ve gained, but also meaningfully embolden others who were too hesitant to defend themselves against bullies by giving them the sense they’re not the only ones bothered by poor discourse, that’s a purchase I endorse. Freedom from trolls isn’t free—turns out even Lumifer will occasionally use Trump-style tactics, if they dislike you enough.
LOL. You smell SJW-ish. A white knight selflessly spending his social capital to defend the weak against the bullies. Against “Trump-style tactics” even! And, of course, you will not be denied for your cause is just.
You are clearly incapable of shutting up so this will be amusing.
So tell me more about things you think are worth defending—especially from the likes of me. Are we still talking about the mere forms of expression which you disapprove of or there’s some deeper ideology involved? Do you see me as lacking honor, or empathy, or proper morals, or the desire to remake the world, or something else?
I note for others reading this comment and wondering why it hasn’t been addressed that I’ve at least temporarily ceased replying to Lumifer and a couple of other posters on a policy level, for reasons surrounding norms of discourse, strawmanning, epistemic humility, presence or absence of good faith, etc. It’s possible that the above contains good questions or insights; if someone else chooses to repost/re-ask/rephrase sections of this, I’ll likely respond to them.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
Oh, good! So I can point out things to you and you won’t be able to talk back? :-D
I note for others reading this comment and wondering why it hasn’t been addressed that I’ve at least temporarily ceased replying to Lumifer and a couple of other posters on a policy level, for reasons surrounding norms of discourse, strawmanning, epistemic humility, presence or absence of good faith, etc. It’s possible that the above contains good questions or insights; if someone else chooses to repost/re-ask/rephrase sections of this, I’ll likely respond to them.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
Once more, please :-)
It’s been a while since the last time I was officially added to the list of the Enemies of the People and… ritually cast out, I guess? This time there even a list of high crimes I’m guilty of—“reasons surrounding norms”. Woe is me!
something to do new thing and that was purposefully paragraph we have assignment help uk to solve the controversy like this
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