These people are being paid to make these kinds of difficult decisions for the good of “their people” and not just to avoid demotion. Anyone can make easy decisions. And they don’t have to be right, they just have to meet The Reasonable Person standard.
But, there was a Dilbert cartoon that said you shouldn’t even be in the same room when a decision is made.
I guess a world court would charge these ‘leaders’ with Dereliction of Duty, fraud, incompetence, negligence, etc..
Not that a solution would ever be implemented or that politicians would ever evolve into better people, but how would a Game Theorist approach this nasty problem? This could be added to Dr. Miller’s videos.
As far as dropping bombs on your own guys, see Carpenter’s Crispy Critters.
And they don’t have to be right, they just have to meet The Reasonable Person standard.
So, can you give some global politics examples where it’s entirely obvious that a Reasonable Person would do X and yet “world leaders” (that means Putin and Obama, right?) do nothing?
What do you mean, pointless? The War on Drugs has enormous benefits for certain kinds of people.
Let me list you some. It keeps the restless natives in check. It’s a good excuse for expanding all kinds of the power of the state. It’s an excellent excuse for just confiscating people’s wealth and as such it funds a large portion of the prison-industrial complex. It provides lots of prisoners for the said prison-industrial complex.
How can you keep civilization running without keeping everyone fearful of the Holy… err.. Evil Trinity of drug lords, child pornographers, and international terrorists? X-/
Maybe you want to talk about the agency problem with your elected officials—in that case try down the corridor, Mr. Barnard; room 12.
You are straw-manning. The war on drugs almost certainly reduces drug consumption and has almost certainly stopped lots of people from having their lives ruined by drugs.
Do you really think it has that much of a benefit? I think it increases consumption if anything by making it cooler. It’s hard to imagine anyone would do coke if it wasn’t illegal and cool because of it’s legal status.
edit: im not sure if your’e serious mr.miller, maybe i’ve misinterpreted something
I think it increases consumption if anything by making it cooler. It’s hard to imagine anyone would do coke if it wasn’t illegal and cool because of it’s legal status.
Well, back when it used to be legal a lot of people did do it. Also, it caused so many problems that a movement started to ban it.
I think that whatever we do with drugs, lots and lots of people are going to suffer. I’m not claiming that on net that the drug war is good, just that it almost certainly stops many people from getting addicted to drugs. I would still favor legalization of most drugs, but I admit enacting this position will have significant (although probably not net) costs. The fact that most Americans support keeping lots of drugs illegal probably shows that most Americans recognize that legalizing all drugs would push up drug consumption and create more wasted lives and more collateral damage from drug users.
On the other hand some people pushing for drug legalization like to pretend that the costs don’t exist.
FTFY.
But that’s a pretty general phenomenon, by no means specific to the legalization of recreational drugs. Just because there exists some people who believe X for dumb reasons isn’t terribly strong evidence against X, especially when counterbalanced by the fact that there also exist people who believe not-X for dumb reasons.
I don’t think I said that. Lol. Very few people would use it without the current stigma, do you know how I know? Because I do coke and most of the culture is influenced by its illegality by a significant degree. It would just reduce to a baseline number, and it’s hard to imagine people destroying their lives due to cocaine if you’re not living in a world of mythology.
Because I do coke and most of the culture is influenced by its illegality by a significant degree.
I agree, coke culture would be different if it was legal. Doesn’t mean people wouldn’t use it, do you know how I know? Because it used to be legal and people did use it, a lot.
I don’t think it would return to its current status and would most certainly decrease. You’re in the wrong forum to discuss this accurately, too many sheltered kids.
Having a high number of policemen seems to be good for having lower crime rates. Giving those policemen the task to go after drugs on the other hand isn’t. The Portuguese model of dealing with drugs is much better.
The tough on crime model also doesn’t lead to lower recidivism rates. It would make more sense to incentive prisons to produces lower recidivism rates.
Why? Are you saying all currently illegal drugs should be legalized? In which case you might what to look at what caused them to become illegal in the first place.
The article glosses over the reasons for criminalization except for a single unbacked reference to “xenophobia”.
Also what about cocaine and heroin. The example of cocaine is illistrative, after Friedrich Gaedcke first isolated cocaine it took decades to realize how dangerous it was. Part of the reason was that he and his doctor friends didn’t have problems with it. Turns out that 19th century doctors had been selected for unusually high willpower.
Furthermore, the fundamental problem of which the isolation of cocaine was emblematic is getting worse as technology improves.
So we have nothing to worry about plants humans consumed for millenia—like Cannabis sativa and Papaver somniferum?
Unless chemists start concentrating the relevant chemical, or they’re used by people whose ancestors haven’t had millennia to adept to them. Yes, this applies to alcohol as well.
Your earlier comment implied that there was something specific about 19th-century doctors that prevented them from realizing how dangerous cocaine was. Today we know it’s dangerous. What did you intend to say was different about doctors back then?
You’re answering a different question. First you said 19th-century doctors were especially willpowered, then you said willpower is also a factor in today’s doctors. Now you say the difference is not willpower but the population examined. You’re not only not giving any evidence for you claims; you’re running in circles.
I think he’s saying that the original population didn’t notice it because of high willpower, then it get into the mainstream population who didn’t have as high willpower, at which point we began to get data on the effects in a low willpower situation.
Cocaine is not even close to as dangerous as heroin, the physical debilitation from alcohol and cannabis is far more extreme than anything with coke, in fact most are underwhelmed and cannot see the point.
Moral panic, mostly. A very hypocritical one, considering how tobacco and alcohol, two very dangerous drugs, are still perfectly acceptable in the Western world.
Not that a solution would ever be implemented or that politicians would ever evolve into better people, but how would a Game Theorist approach this nasty problem?
Certainly not by allowing a specific court to judge politicians for every political decision that it doesn’t like. That would be a good recipe for civil war.
These people are being paid to make these kinds of difficult decisions for the good of “their people” and not just to avoid demotion. Anyone can make easy decisions. And they don’t have to be right, they just have to meet The Reasonable Person standard.
But, there was a Dilbert cartoon that said you shouldn’t even be in the same room when a decision is made.
I guess a world court would charge these ‘leaders’ with Dereliction of Duty, fraud, incompetence, negligence, etc..
Not that a solution would ever be implemented or that politicians would ever evolve into better people, but how would a Game Theorist approach this nasty problem? This could be added to Dr. Miller’s videos.
As far as dropping bombs on your own guys, see Carpenter’s Crispy Critters.
So, can you give some global politics examples where it’s entirely obvious that a Reasonable Person would do X and yet “world leaders” (that means Putin and Obama, right?) do nothing?
The war on drugs is pointless, yet U.S. administrations stubbornly persist with it.
What do you mean, pointless? The War on Drugs has enormous benefits for certain kinds of people.
Let me list you some. It keeps the restless natives in check. It’s a good excuse for expanding all kinds of the power of the state. It’s an excellent excuse for just confiscating people’s wealth and as such it funds a large portion of the prison-industrial complex. It provides lots of prisoners for the said prison-industrial complex.
How can you keep civilization running without keeping everyone fearful of the Holy… err.. Evil Trinity of drug lords, child pornographers, and international terrorists? X-/
Maybe you want to talk about the agency problem with your elected officials—in that case try down the corridor, Mr. Barnard; room 12.
You are straw-manning. The war on drugs almost certainly reduces drug consumption and has almost certainly stopped lots of people from having their lives ruined by drugs.
I’m strawmanning whom?
Notice that I’m actually objecting to polymathwannabe’s claim that the War on Drugs is “pointless”.
I thought (perhaps mistakenly) that you were strawmanning the social benefits of the war on drugs.
I consider these benefits to be much lesser than the costs. But, as I pointed out, it depends on the point of view. It’s an ill wind...
I thought he was being sarcastic. But my sarcasm meter is terribly miscalibrated.
Do you really think it has that much of a benefit? I think it increases consumption if anything by making it cooler. It’s hard to imagine anyone would do coke if it wasn’t illegal and cool because of it’s legal status.
edit: im not sure if your’e serious mr.miller, maybe i’ve misinterpreted something
Well, back when it used to be legal a lot of people did do it. Also, it caused so many problems that a movement started to ban it.
That’s a fully general argument against most everything under the sun.
Like what?
I think that whatever we do with drugs, lots and lots of people are going to suffer. I’m not claiming that on net that the drug war is good, just that it almost certainly stops many people from getting addicted to drugs. I would still favor legalization of most drugs, but I admit enacting this position will have significant (although probably not net) costs. The fact that most Americans support keeping lots of drugs illegal probably shows that most Americans recognize that legalizing all drugs would push up drug consumption and create more wasted lives and more collateral damage from drug users.
TANSTAAFL does not imply the fallacy of the grey.
On the other hand the people pushing for drug legalization like to pretend that the costs don’t exist.
For example SanguineEmpiricist was claiming up thread that no one would use cocaine if it wasn’t illegal.
People pushing for the continuation of the war on drugs like the pretend the costs don’t exist, too.
It’s a very pervasive attitude :-/
You are right in your sentiments in this thread.
FTFY.
But that’s a pretty general phenomenon, by no means specific to the legalization of recreational drugs. Just because there exists some people who believe X for dumb reasons isn’t terribly strong evidence against X, especially when counterbalanced by the fact that there also exist people who believe not-X for dumb reasons.
I don’t think I said that. Lol. Very few people would use it without the current stigma, do you know how I know? Because I do coke and most of the culture is influenced by its illegality by a significant degree. It would just reduce to a baseline number, and it’s hard to imagine people destroying their lives due to cocaine if you’re not living in a world of mythology.
Where’s gwern when you need him?
I agree, coke culture would be different if it was legal. Doesn’t mean people wouldn’t use it, do you know how I know? Because it used to be legal and people did use it, a lot.
I don’t think it would return to its current status and would most certainly decrease. You’re in the wrong forum to discuss this accurately, too many sheltered kids.
The US public wants politician who are tough on crime and as a result over a long time no politican opposed the war on drugs.
I don’t see why that means the politicians aren’t reasonable even if I personally don’t support the war on drugs.
For a very good reason. When soft on crime politicians took power in the 70s, crime proceeded to increase to unacceptable levels.
Having a high number of policemen seems to be good for having lower crime rates. Giving those policemen the task to go after drugs on the other hand isn’t. The Portuguese model of dealing with drugs is much better.
The tough on crime model also doesn’t lead to lower recidivism rates. It would make more sense to incentive prisons to produces lower recidivism rates.
Why? Are you saying all currently illegal drugs should be legalized? In which case you might what to look at what caused them to become illegal in the first place.
That line of argument isn’t going to go well for you, see e.g. marijuana.
The article glosses over the reasons for criminalization except for a single unbacked reference to “xenophobia”.
Also what about cocaine and heroin. The example of cocaine is illistrative, after Friedrich Gaedcke first isolated cocaine it took decades to realize how dangerous it was. Part of the reason was that he and his doctor friends didn’t have problems with it. Turns out that 19th century doctors had been selected for unusually high willpower.
Furthermore, the fundamental problem of which the isolation of cocaine was emblematic is getting worse as technology improves.
Google is your friend. The criminalization of marijuana is well-documented.
So we have nothing to worry about plants humans consumed for millenia—like Cannabis sativa and Papaver somniferum?
Unless chemists start concentrating the relevant chemical, or they’re used by people whose ancestors haven’t had millennia to adept to them. Yes, this applies to alcohol as well.
Thanks, I needed a big laugh today. Your grasp of artificial selection is completely ludicrous.
Wow, you totally fail at reading comprehension.
Hint: the word “selection” has meanings besides the biological one.
Still implausible. At which point did willpower factor in the career path of an aspiring 19th-century doctor (in a way that it doesn’t today)?
I never said it doesn’t today.
Your earlier comment implied that there was something specific about 19th-century doctors that prevented them from realizing how dangerous cocaine was. Today we know it’s dangerous. What did you intend to say was different about doctors back then?
The fact that today we have data on its effects on people who aren’t high-willpower doctors.
You’re answering a different question. First you said 19th-century doctors were especially willpowered, then you said willpower is also a factor in today’s doctors. Now you say the difference is not willpower but the population examined. You’re not only not giving any evidence for you claims; you’re running in circles.
I think he’s saying that the original population didn’t notice it because of high willpower, then it get into the mainstream population who didn’t have as high willpower, at which point we began to get data on the effects in a low willpower situation.
Reread my comments again. Your failure at basic English comprehention is not my problem.
Cocaine is not even close to as dangerous as heroin, the physical debilitation from alcohol and cannabis is far more extreme than anything with coke, in fact most are underwhelmed and cannot see the point.
But also at whether the problems that their prohibition has caused are bigger or smaller than those it solved.
Moral panic, mostly. A very hypocritical one, considering how tobacco and alcohol, two very dangerous drugs, are still perfectly acceptable in the Western world.
Certainly not by allowing a specific court to judge politicians for every political decision that it doesn’t like. That would be a good recipe for civil war.
Thanks for all answers.
I still have notes from Durant’s “The Lessons of History” so I should comb through these replies using this source, looking for contradictions.
This thread is perhaps an outlier as to the Level of Nesting.