I agree completely on the additional wiki requirements.
There should be no difference account/Karma wise between posting on the main site or the wiki.
tetsuo55
Karma: 230
In my limited experience with children i have found that children will only do this when they are being ignored. I have only experienced it once myself and you quickly see the child is teasing you by their eyes and uneasy movement. The benchmark I use is repeating the same question again at a later time, that means they either did not understand or are teasing.
Did i understand correctly that you want us both to review your text and add specific examples that we can think of?
I will do both.On the text:
I liked it very much, but I don’t think the text works very well for people who do not see rationality as a virtue.
Some problems i see when i try to put on the glasses of my anti-rationality friends:The use of many in-crowd words and assumed meanings: hypothesis, fallacy, cognitive (non-rationality fan people do not use these words in daily life); What could be done is provide links to your definition. I believe we should keep definitions for these words on the lesswrong wiki because not all dictionaries agree on what all of them mean exactly, or what we mean by them.
I know many people who will deny any claim that they are in some way faulty or that emotions are a bad thing, unfortunately i do not know of a good way to get around this.
I get the feeling that the whole body of text is somewhat on the negative side: “Rationality will protect you from the cold harsh world” is the feeling i get.
On personal experience with applied rationality:
Example1:
I learned on lesswrong how an hypothesis should be used and how to use experimentation to collect evidence for or against it. Using the scientific method i formed the hypothesis that something in my food was making me have to go to the bathroom all day long (for the past 15 years). So i started keeping a food diary where i noted what i ate at what time and at what time i had to visit the bathroom and if the visit was normal or not.
Eventually a pattern began to form and after about a month of taking notes it became clear that Chili pepper seemed to be the causation, but at this point it could merely be a correlation. (i had once blamed corn, the doctors did not agree but i could clearly see the causation with my irrational eyes, as it turns out i never eat corn without chili pepper, so it was only a correlation) So i formed a new hypothesis: When I eat chilly i will get into trouble and then ran tests on that. So I removed chilly from my diet completely. (and the problems all went away), then to test i ate a big bowl of hot chili pepper soup, and in no time i was running to the bathroom again.Example2:
(This one is about school an learning, i will be talking about a level of school similar to highschool. We use a grading system of 1(worst) to 10(best). The type of class i was in is what in the states would be considered a special school/class for gifted children)
When i got to “High School” i quickly found myself being teased about my learning abilities. With the notable exceptions of Excercise/Gym and Handwriting i was a straight 10 student, always had been. (I’m that guy that corrects mistakes in the schoolbook and the teachers explanation)
Although i pretended the teasing didn’t hurt me, i only recently (with the rationality lessons of lesswrong) started to realise that they did hurt.
What happened was that i started to dislike school, getting 10′s made me unpopular so something inside me snapped and i started dumbing down to be more “cool”
I still had 8′s for everything and the teasing stopped.
But then something worse happened. In the 3rd grade of High School they changed the teachers for Math and we got a new one. This teacher was not a teacher. Instead it was a math genius that knew how to get the results/proofs but had no idea why. I had always relied on learning a concept through the way of asking why, mapping it to my existing knowledge and then integrating it. but this teacher expected me to “guess the teachers password” and learn math like a copyprinter.
I couldn’t do it, quickly i went from an 11 average (i never dumbed down on math) to 2-3 average, not long after i quit school completely and started working for minimum wage.From that moment on i believed i was unable to learn, the experience shocked me and scared me. I have been unable to study anything since.
Through the lesswrong sequences and advice from regulars on lesswrong i have managed to pinpoint my learned helplessness cause and overcome it. I have learned more than i have in the past 10 years since coming to lesswrong.
Some smaller examples:
I have done a google scholar, and google regular research to figure out what the best oral health strategy is according to the “better” studies (on average they all suck though)
I have picked up my university study that i have been procrastinating on for 5 years and am seeing good progress and most importantly, retention.
I have earned an excellent rating at work for self improvement in communication.
I have earned an excellent rating at work for using my rationality skills to massively improve the quality of questions asked at work. Before we would accept any claim, now we only accept questions that have empirical evidence of adding value.(this went from 60% effectiveness to 94%)
Since i suck at arguing i would love to see more posts on this subject. I also agree with previous commenter’s that a clear distinction needs to be made for things that are darksidey or purely meant for winning an argument no matter what.
there are times when winning the argument is better for your terminal values than always trying to convince the other party of truth.
I found a video that explains what i mean at a very basic level http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1F3vmNeyOvU
This video tries to explain what i mean, i hope the inferential distance is not too far
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1F3vmNeyOvU
I too am very good at guessing the teachers password in addition to really learning the textbook contents. I am talking specifically about those students that do not use guessing the teacher’s password as a way to finish with honors. I always do the propagation during the learning itself and improve upon it after the fact (i’ll suddenly realize that something is off or changed days later)
I said i had a hard time explaining it and your comment makes extra clear that i failed. I will use your feedback to improve the text i have in mind.
I had this idea that these articles and sequences would help me at winning in life while simultaneously pave the way for a better world and friendly AI. Now seeing these short summaries i am no longer so sure they will help me win.
This post made me realize just how important it is to completely integrate the new things you learn.
I have been reading a lot of books and blogs on the subject of students that finish school with honors, but don’t seem to work very hard while doing so. I also met one of those people in person (he finished an entire 4 year curriculum with honors in just 3 months and is now a professor of that content)
It all boils to the same thing: Whatever the textbook is trying to tell you, make sure you integrate that in your life. Only then will you see if you really understood what it was saying and if you are missing any extra information, or if the information in the book is wrong. Once integrated you do not need any extra studying to get an A/10 for the exam.(because you will have recursively updated all your beliefs to include the thing you where supposed to learn)
Some of these books and blogs go into detail on how to how to do this. One of the methods i read was making a doodle of the idea in your notebook. This doodle borrows heavily from your current state of knowledge. An example of what I did: To model the process of taking a raw resource and making it into a profitable end product i drew a mine with rocks coming out, then a table with a chisel on the rock and finally a diamond with a price-tag. I know how diamonds are made so i could use that to represent this process.
There are many more methods, another that i have not yet tried to use is basically making a flashcard.: Question/Evidence/Conclusion http://calnewport.com/blog/2009/04/06/4-weeks-to-a-40-streamline-your-notes/
EDIT: I’m having a hard time explaining what i am trying to say, i will post a new comment or top level post if i manage to figure it out. Basically I’m trying to say that there already well working and documented methods for connecting and updating beliefs in the world of outlier student research.
Test result: I feel really happy and relieved, i finally belong in the group and people will stop nagging me about it, i can put it all behind me. I’m not a chump at all, in fact, i’m (finally) normal.
I do feel forced to finish school, just because everyone else has done so and I have to live up to the expectations of society. (I also live in a country where without a diploma they don’t even invite you for an interview).
I have trouble letting go of stuff in general (i have OCD) so i might just read that book anyway.
I shouldn’t have to finish school because others want me to, but because i want to of my own free will.
(You know i love playing RPG’s and maxing out all the skill trees and side quest badges, these are really no different from school (in my school i’ll actually get 32 different badges in addition to the diploma)
Ok so i thought about it hard.
Here’s what i think the problem is: I think people who finished school and have diploma’s are chumps who fell for paper-to-prove skills game in a system that is easily gamable and as a result doesn’t actually show anything about your skill.
I guess i’ve made it a point to prove that you don’t need school to get shit done (i have the biggest house, earn the most, best car, etc.. of all my friends and family, it seems i DO care about showing off?)
What i’ve been stumped on for years though, is how to respect being a graduate.
I’ve actually read about this connection in several self help blogs and posts. I also casually mention it in my comment earlier today.
I kind of remember getting the same idea from reading your book, maybe memory is foggy or you only hint at it.
Do you know of a better strategy?
I cannot find any flaw in your statement. If it where just up to me I would just forget about school and give up. But it’s not up to me.
I need to find a way to find the motivation to actually do the school work, but nothing i can come up with seems to work..
Blockers that come to mind are: “I’ll fail the exams and have to pay extra money to do them again” “The information is so densly packed i can’t follow half of it” “I say that i can accept a 6⁄10 but i don’t really believe that(i want at least 8⁄10)” The list goes on, i think they are just excuses that hide the real feeling.
EDIT: i figured something out, I need to find a pet project or work project that the class is relevant for and then follow the class as a way to get that project done/improved. That way i have a directly related goal and no reason to procrastinate.
I don’t see it?
I am doing school to improve my chances on the market. I have been working since i quit school at 18(31 now). The reason i need to finish school is so i can apply for better jobs or get a raise in my current one. There is also other financial benefits involved with finishing school (i’ll get a 10.000 euro bonus when i do). But all that still does not motivate me to do it. There IS a lot of fear involved, i was a straight A student before i met the teacher from hell and soon after quit school.
EDIT: forgot to mention that the contents of the classes are for 80% or more relevant to my dayjob.
I have a bunch that i cannot solve, maybe i have gone to low on them? in fact i’ve only fixed 3 or 4 so far, and they where all done in in a couple of beliefs.
I guess i never learned how to spot “going too low”
My biggest problem is doing school. I have been procrastinating on it for years and i can only bring my self to do brief bursts of work for a few days followed by weeks of doing nothing. I have tackled several conflicting beliefs but this one won’t budge.
P.S. I would like to know about the progress on your new books. P.P.S It would be great if you could help/coach me somehow.
The most important thing i learned from less wrong is “Cause and Effect”.
Since i filled out the poll i would like to say something.
What i think the poll did not take into account is that procrastination seems to be caused by conflicting beliefs. I can completely cure myself from procrastination on one specific subject if i manage to find and correct all the conflicting beliefs. It also helps to allign them with a goal you have, this turns a once procastination inducing task to something you get OCD about doing whenever it pops up.
But thats also a downside, you have to learn the habits of tracking down the conflicting beliefs, and you are likely to procrastinate at learning these new habits (as do I). It’s also a bit depressing to realise you have so many conflicting beliefs,but that effect is outweighed by knowing you CAN fix them some day.
In my experience it can take anywhere from 1 to dozens of belief changes to fix chronic procrastination on a single task. I have noticed some bleeding out effect though, some of the other tasks i used to procrastinate on have become easier to do, but they clearly still have conflicting beliefs of their own.
My point is: Generally you need to attack each individual thing you procrastinate on one by one, so progress is VERY slow. But i would never have gotten to step one without lesswrong and particularly PJ Eby’s http://thinkingthingsdone.com/
I guess i would like to see an exercise routine that was designed from the ground up to provide a nice balance of benefits vs injury risk, and then specifically a routine that you can keep doing indefinitely.
But maybe i’m not giving the breakdown of the human body enough weight…
I guess i just want a lifelong exercise plan with easy to follow steps, one that has a lot of evidence behind it that it won’t cause early damage to bone, tissue, etc…
Thanks for that fix, i updated my post to correct that. I mean this fruit/spice specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chili_pepper
I assume I’m allergic to the capsaicin in it, as i can eat Bell peppers and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_pepper without any effects.