you calling into question whether the reason I say I am conscious, is because I am actually conscious, does not make it actually questionable. It is not.
What the hell does “not questionable” mean?
you calling into question whether the reason I say I am conscious, is because I am actually conscious, does not make it actually questionable. It is not.
What the hell does “not questionable” mean?
Is that a fact or an opinion?
Well, you quoted two statements, so the question has multiple interpretations. Obviously, anything can be of ethical concert, if you really want it to be. Also the opinion/fact separation is somewhat silly. Having said that:
“pain is of ethical concern because you don’t like it” is a trivial fact in the sense that, if you loved pain, hurting you would likely not be morally wrong.
“You don’t have to involve consciousness here”—has two meanings:
one is “the concept of preference is simpler than the concept of consciousness”, which I would like to call a fact, although there are some problems with preference too.
another is “consciousness is generally not necessary to explain morality”, which is more of an opinion.
“highly unpleasant physical sensation caused by illness or injury.”
Of course, now I’ll say that I need “sensation” defined.
have you got an exact definition of “concept”?
Requiring extreme precision in all things tends to bite you.
I’d say it’s one of the things brains do, along with feelings, memories, ideas, etc. I may be able to come up with a few suggestions how to tell them apart, but I don’t want to bother. That’s because I have never considered “Is X a concept” to be an interesting question. And, frankly, I use the cord “concept” arbitrarily.
It’s you who thinks that “Can X feel pain” is an interesting question. At that point proper definitions become necessary. I don’t think I’m being extreme at all.
Useless for communication.
A bit too vague. Can I clarify that as “Useless for communication, because it transfers no information”? Even though that’s a bit too strict.
Meaningless statements cannot have truth values assigned to them.
What is stopping me from assigning them truth values? I’m sure you meant, “meaningless statements cannot be proven or disproven”. But “proof” is a problematic concept. You may prefer “for meaningless statements there are no arguments in favor or against them”, but for statements “X exists”, Occam’s razor is often a good counter-argument. Anyway, isn’t (1.) enough?
Where is this going?
It’s still entirely about meaning, measurability and existence. I want you to decide whether “there is an invisible/undetectable unicorn in your room” is meaningless or false.
This started when you said that “robots don’t feel pain” does not follow from “we have no arguments suggesting that maybe ‘robot pain’ could be something measurable”. I’m trying to understand why not and what it could follow from. Does “invisible unicorns do not exist” not follow from “invisible unicorns cannot be detected in any way?”. Or maybe “invisible unicorns cannot be detected” does not follow from “we have no arguments suggesting that maybe ‘invisible unicorns’ could be something detectable”?
It only explains the “-less” suffix. It’s fine as a dictionary definition, but that’s obviously not what I asked for. I need you to explain “meaning” as well.
Google could easily add a module to Google Translate that would convert a statement into its opposite.
No, google could maybe add “not” before every “conscious”, in a grammatically correct way, but it is very far from figuring out what other beliefs need to be altered to make these claims consistent. When it can do that, it will be conscious in my book.
You identify yourself with the mute mind, and the process converts that into you saying that you identify with the converted mind.
What is “you” in this sentence? The mute mind identifies with the mute mind, and the translation process identifies with the translation process.
I say I am conscious precisely because I am conscious.
There are possible reasons for saying you are conscious, other than being conscious. A tape recorder can also say it is conscious. Saying something doesn’t make it true.
You are correct that “I forgot”, in the sense that I don’t know exactly what you are referring to
Well, that explains a lot. It’s not exactly ancient history, and everything is properly quoted, so you really should know what I’m talking about. Yes, it’s about the identical table-chairs question from IKEA discussion, the one that I linked to just a few posts above.
Secondly, what I mean is that there are no determinate boundaries to the meaning of the word.
Why are there no determinate boundaries though? I’m saying that boundaries are unclear only if you haven’t yet decided what they should be. But you seem to be saying that the boundaries inherently cannot be clear?
All categories are vague, because they are generated by a process similar to factor analysis
There is nothing vague about the results of factor analysis.
It is false that the meanings are arbitrary, for the reasons I have said.
On this topic, last we seemed to have agreed that “arbitrary” classification means “without reasons related to the properties of the objects classified”. I don’t recall you ever giving any such reasons.
It is also false that there is some “absolute and natural concept of a chair,” and I have never suggested that there is.
For example, you have said ‘”are tables also chairs” has a definite answer’. Note the word “definite”. You also keep insisting that there is factor analysis involved, which would also be an objective and natural way to assign objects to categories. By the way “natural” is the opposite of “arbitrary”.
All words are defined either by other words, or by pointing at things, and precise concepts cannot be formed by pointing at things.
Yeah, I recall saying something like that myself. And the rest of your claims don’t go well with this one.
you are the one who needs the “language 101” stuff
Well, you decided that I need it, then made some wild and unsupported claims.
You have been confusing the idea “this statement has a meaning” with “this statement is testable.”
Yes, the two statements are largely equivalent. Oddly, I don’t recall you mentioning testability or measurability anywhere in this thread before (I think there was something in another thread though).
Likewise, you have been confusing “this statement is vague” with “this statement is not testable.”
I don’t think I’ve done that. It’s unfortunate that after this you spent so much time trying to to prove something I don’t really disagree with. Why did you think that I’m confusing these things? Please quote.
Consider a line of stars. The one at the left end is a red giant. The one at the right end is a white dwarf. In between, the stars each differ from the previous one by a single atom. Then you have a question of vagueness. When exactly do we stop calling them white dwarfs and start calling them red giants? There cannot possibly be a precise answer. This has nothing to do with testability; we can test whatever we want. The problem is that the terminology is vague, and there is no precise answer because it is vague.
This is only as vague as you want it to be. If you want, you can cut the line, based on whatever reason, and call all the starts on one side “red giants” and stars on the other side “white dwarfs”. It would be pointless, but there is nothing stopping you. You say “cannot possibly” and then give no reasons why.
I however have no problems with the vagueness here, because the two categories are only shorthands for some very specific properties of the starts (like mass). This is not true for “consciousness”.
Nonetheless, this proves that testability is entirely separate from vagueness.
It’s not a test if “no” is unobservable.
By acting like you actually want to understand what is being said
I think you already forgot how this particular part of the thread started. First I said that we had established that “X is false”, then you disagreed, then I pointed out that I had asked “is X true?” and you had no direct answer. Here I’m only asking you for a black and white answer on this very specific question. I understood your original reply, but I honestly have not idea how it was supposed to answer my specific question. When people refuse to give direct answers to specific questions, I infer that they’re conceding.
In other words, while recognizing that words are vague and pretending that this has something to do with consciousness, you are trying to make me give black or white answers to questions about chairs, black or white answers that do not apply precisely because words are vague.
What exactly do you mean by “vague”? The word “chair” refers to the category of chairs. Is the category itself “vague”?
I have been telling you form the beginning, that the meanings of words are constructed individually and arbitrarily on a case by case basis. But you keep acting like there is some shared, absolute and natural concept of a chair. Apparently one that you have more knowledge of than I. So I keep asking you specific questions about this concept. And finally, you seem to agree that you don’t actually know what the corner cases are or should be, but apparently that’s not because people use words as they please, but because this shared absolute and natural concept of a chair is “vague”, whatever that means.
We can talk more about what this has to do with consciousness when we get past the “language 101” stuff. By the way, this thread started here where you explicitly start talking about words and meanings, so that’s what we’re talking about.
The reason why I wrote the previous sentence is because I am conscious.
That’s just paraphrasing your previous claim.
how do you know you don’t just agree with me about this you whole discussion, and you are mechanically writing statements you don’t agree with?
I have no problems here. First, everything is mechanical. Second, a process that would translate one belief into it’s opposite, in a consistent way, would be complex enough to be considered a mind of its own. I then identify “myself” with this mind, rather than the one that’s mute.
Notably, the reason I gave for thinking my consciousness is causal is not a reason for thinking five fingers is.
You gave no reason for thinking that your consciousness is causal. You just replied with a question.
I means “does not have a meaning.”
I’m sure you can see how unhelpful this is.
Robot pain is of ethical concern because pain hurts.
No, pain is of ethical concern because you don’t like it. You don’t have to involve consciousness here. You involve it, because you want to.
God and homeopathy are meaningful, which is why people are able to mount arguments against them,
Homeopathy is meaningful. God is meaningful only some of the time. But I didn’t mean to imply that they are analogues. They’re just other bad ideas that get way too much attention.
The ordinary definition for pain clearly does exist, if that is what you mean.
What is it exactly? Obviously, I expect that it either will not be a definition or will rely on other poorly defined concepts.
Meaningfulness, existence, etc.
It is evident that this is a major source of our disagreement. Can you define “meaningless” for me, as you understand it? In particular, how it applies to grammatically correct statements.
It’s perfectly good as a standalone stament
So you agree that invisible unicorns indeed do not exist? How do you know? Obviously, the unicorns I’m talking about are not just undetectable by light, they’re also undetectable by all other methods.
I perform many human behaviors because I am conscious.
Another bold claim. Why do you think that there is a causal relationship between having consciousness and behavior? Are you sure that consciousness isn’t just a passive observer? Also, why do you think that there is no causal relationship between having consciousness and five fingers?
I don’t know where you think that was established.
Well, I asked you almost that exact question, you quoted it, and replied with something other than “yes”. How was I supposed to interpret that?
So for example if you find some random rocks somewhat in the shape of a chair, they will not be a chair
So, if I find one chair-shaped rock, it’s not a chair, but if I then take a second rock, sculpt it into the shape of the first rock and sit on it, the second rock is a chair? Would simply sitting on the first rock convert it into a chair?
I can understand why you wouldn’t want to call a chair shaped rock a “chair”. But you don’t have to involve the intention of the maker for this.
but you have brought in a bunch of different issues without explaining how they interrelate
Which issues exactly?
No, still not from that.
Why not? Is this still about how you’re uncomfortable saying that invisible unicorns don’t exist? Does “‘robot pain’ is meaningless” follow from the same better?
If someone made something for sitting, you have more reason to call it a chair. If someone made something -not- for sitting, you have less reason to call it a chair.
Yes, correlated variables are evidence, and evidence influences certainty about the classification, but that’s not the same as influencing the classification.
And those things are true even given the same form
So if I made two identical objects, with the intention to use one as a chair and another as a coffee table, then one would be a chair and another would be a coffee table? I thought we already established that they wouldn’t.
But surely, you believe that human-like behavior is stronger evidence than a hand with five fingers. Why is that?
Behavior sufficiently similar to human behavior would be a probable, although not conclusive, reason to think that it is conscious. There could not be a conclusive reason.
Why is this a probable reason? You have one data point—yourself. Sure, you have human-like behavior, but you also have many other properties, like five fingers on each hand. Why does behavior seem like a more significant indicator of consciousness than having hands with five fingers? How did you come to that conclusion?
Ok, do you have any arguments to support that it is causal?
Are you saying that we must have dualism, and that consciousness is something that certainly cannot be reduced to “parts moved by other parts”? It’s not just that some arrangements of matter are conscious and others are not?
Again, you make a claim and then offer no arguments to support it. “Red giant” is a term defined quite recently by a fairly small group of people. It means what those people wanted it to mean, and its boundaries are as precise as those people wanted them to be.
You started the language discussion, but I have to explain why we’re continuing it? I continue, because I suspect that the reasoning errors you’re making about chairs are similar to the errors you’re making abut consciousness, and chairs are easier to talk about. But it’s only a suspicion. Also, I continue, because you’ve made some ridiculous claims and I’m not going to ignore them.