Co-Executive Director at ML Alignment & Theory Scholars Program (2022-present)
Co-Founder & Board Member at London Initiative for Safe AI (2023-present)
Manifund Regrantor (2023-present) | RFPs here
Advisor, Catalyze Impact (2023-present) | ToC here
Advisor, AI Safety ANZ (2024-present)
Advisor, Pivotal Research (2024-present)
Ph.D. in Physics at the University of Queensland (2017-2023)
Group organizer at Effective Altruism UQ (2018-2021)
Give me feedback! :)
You could consider doing MATS as “I don’t know what to do, so I’ll try my hand at something a decent number of apparent experts consider worthwhile and meanwhile bootstrap a deep understanding of this subfield and a shallow understanding of a dozen other subfields pursued by my peers.” This seems like a common MATS experience and I think this is a good thing.
Some caveats:
A crucial part of the “hodge-podge alignment feedback loop” is “propose new candidate solutions, often grounded in theoretical models.” I don’t want to entirely focus on empirically fleshing out existing research directions to the exclusion of proposing new candidate directions. However, it seems that, often, new on-paradigm research directions emerge in the process of iterating on old ones!
“Playing theoretical builder-breaker” is an important skill and I think this should be taught more widely. “Iterators,” as I conceive of them, are capable of playing this game well, in addition to empirically testing these theoretical insights against reality. John, to his credit, did a great job of emphasizing the importance of this skill with his MATS workshops on the alignment game tree and similar.
I don’t want to entirely trust in alignments MVPs, so I strongly support empirical research that aims to show the failure modes of this meta-strategy. I additionally support the creation of novel strategic paradigms, though I think this is quite hard. IMO, our best paradigm-level insights as a field largely come from interdisciplinary knowledge transfer (e.g., from economics, game theory, evolutionary biology, physics), not raw-g ideas from the best physics postdocs. Though I wouldn’t turn away a chance to create more von Neumann’s, of course!
Alice is excited about the eliciting latent knowledge (ELK) doc, and spends a few months working on it. Bob is excited about debate, and spends a few months working on it. At the end of those few months, Alice has a much better understanding of how and why ELK is hard, has correctly realized that she has no traction on it at all, and pivots to working on technical governance. Bob, meanwhile, has some toy but tangible outputs, and feels like he’s making progress.
I don’t want to respond to the examples rather than the underlying argument, but it seems necessary here: this seems like a massively overconfident claim about ELK and debate that I don’t believe is justified by popular theoretical worst-case objections. I think a common cause of “worlds where iterative design fails” is “iterative design seems hard and we stopped at the first apparent hurdle.” Sure, in some worlds we can rule out entire classes of solutions via strong theoretical arguments (e.g., “no-go theorems”); but that is not the case here. If I felt confident that the theory-level objections to ELK and debate ruled out hodge-podge solutions, I would abandon hope in these research directions and drop them from the portfolio. But this “flinching away” would ensure that genuine progress on these thorny problems never happened. If Stephen Casper, et al. treated ELK as unsolvable, they would never have published “Latent Adversarial Training Improves Robustness to Persistent Harmful Behaviors in LLMs”. If Akbir Khan, et al. treated debate as unsolvable, they would never have published “Debating with More Persuasive LLMs Leads to More Truthful Answers.” I consider these papers genuine progress towards hodge-podge alignment, which I consider a viable strategy towards “alignment MVPs.” Many more such cases.
A crucial part of my worldview is that good science does not have to “begin with the entire end in mind.” Exploratory research pushing the boundaries of the current paradigm might sometimes seem contraindicated by theoretical arguments, but achieve empirical results anyways. The theory-practise gap can cut both ways: sometimes sound-seeming theoretical arguments fail to predict tractable empirical solutions. Just because travelling salesman is NP-hard doesn’t mean that a P-time algorithm for a restricted subclass of the problem doesn’t exist! I do not feel sufficiently confident in the popular criticisms of dominant prosaic AI safety strategies to rule them out; far from it. I want new researchers to download these criticisms, as there is valuable insight here, but “touch reality” anyways, rather than flinch away from the messy work of iteratively probing and steering vast, alien matrices.
Maybe research directions like ELK and debate sizzle out because the theoretical objections hold up in practise. Maybe they sizzle out for unrelated reasons, such as weird features of neural nets or just because we don’t have time for the requisite empirical tinkering. But we would never find out unless we tried! And we would never equip a generation of empirical researchers to iterate on candidate solutions until something breaks. It’s this skill that I think is most lacking in alignment: turning theoretical builder-breaker moves into empirical experiments on frontier LLMs (the apparent most likely substrate of first-gen AGI) that move us iteratively closer to a sufficiently scalable hodge-podge alignment MVP.
Obviously I disagree with Tsvi regarding the value of MATS to the proto-alignment researcher; I think being exposed to high quality mentorship and peer-sourced red-teaming of your research ideas is incredibly valuable for emerging researchers. However, he makes a good point: ideally, scholars shouldn’t feel pushed to write highly competitive LTFF grant applications so soon into their research careers; there should be longer-term unconditional funding opportunities. I would love to unlock this so that a subset of scholars can explore diverse research directions for 1-2 years without 6-month grant timelines looming over them. Currently cooking something in this space.
@yanni kyriacos when will you post about TARA and Sydney AI Safety Hub on LW? ;)
@abramdemski DM me :)
Can you make a Manifund.org grant application if you need funding?
I’m not sure!
We don’t collect GRE/SAT scores, but we do have CodeSignal scores and (for the first time) a general aptitude test developed in collaboration with SparkWave. Many MATS applicants have maxed out scores for the CodeSignal and general aptitude tests. We might share these stats later.
I don’t agree with the following claims (which might misrepresent you):
“Skill levels” are domain agnostic.
Frontier oversight, control, evals, and non-”science of DL” interp research is strictly easier in practice than frontier agent foundations and “science of DL” interp research.
The main reason there is more funding/interest in the former category than the latter is due to skill issues, rather than worldview differences and clarity of scope.
MATS has mid researchers relative to other programs.
I don’t think it makes sense to compare Google intern salary with AIS program stipends this way, as AIS programs are nonprofits (with associated salary cut) and generally trying to select against people motivated principally by money. It seems like good mechanism design to pay less than tech internships, even if the technical bar for is higher, given that value alignment is best selected by looking for “costly signals” like salary sacrifice.
I don’t think the correlation for competence among AIS programs is as you describe.
I think there some confounders here:
PIBBSS had 12 fellows last cohort and MATS had 90 scholars. The mean/median MATS Summer 2024 scholar was 27; I’m not sure what this was for PIBBSS. The median age of the 12 oldest MATS scholars was 35 (mean 36). If we were selecting for age (which is silly/illegal, of course) and had a smaller program, I would bet that MATS would be older than PIBBSS on average. MATS also had 12 scholars with completed PhDs and 11 in-progress.
Several PIBBSS fellows/affiliates have done MATS (e.g., Ann-Kathrin Dombrowski, Magdalena Wache, Brady Pelkey, Martín Soto).
I suspect that your estimation of “how smart do these people seem” might be somewhat contingent on research taste. Most MATS research projects are in prosaic AI safety fields like oversight & control, evals, and non-”science of DL” interpretability, while most PIBBSS research has been in “biology/physics-inspired” interpretability, agent foundations, and (recently) novel policy approaches (all of which MATS has supported historically).
Also, MATS is generally trying to further a different research porfolio than PIBBSS, as I discuss here, and has substantial success in accelerating hires to AI scaling lab safety teams and research nonprofits, helping scholars found impactful AI safety organizations, and (I suspect) accelerating AISI hires.
Are these PIBBSS fellows (MATS scholar analog) or PIBBSS affiliates (MATS mentor analog)?
Updated figure with LASR Labs and Pivotal Research Fellowship at current exchange rate of 1 GBP = 1.292 USD.
That seems like a reasonable stipend for LASR. I don’t think they cover housing, however.
That said, maybe you are conceptualizing of an “efficient market” that principally values impact, in which case I would expect the governance/policy programs to have higher stipends. However, I’ll note that 87% of MATS alumni are interested in working at an AISI and several are currently working at UK AISI, so it seems that MATS is doing a good job of recruiting technical governance talent that is happy to work for government wages.
Note that governance/policy jobs pay less than ML research/engineering jobs, so I expect GovAI, IAPS, and ERA, which are more governance focused, to have a lower stipend. Also, MATS is deliberately trying to attract top CS PhD students, so our stipend should be higher than theirs, although lower than Google internships to select for value alignment. I suspect that PIBBSS’ stipend is an outlier and artificially low due to low funding. Given that PIBBSS has a mixture of ML and policy projects, and IMO is generally pursuing higher variance research than MATS, I suspect their optimal stipend would be lower than MATS’, but higher than a Stanford PhD’s; perhaps around IAPS’ rate.
That’s interesting! What evidence do you have of this? What metrics are you using?
MATS lowered the stipend from $50/h to $40/h ahead of the Summer 2023 Program to support more scholars. We then lowered it again to $30/h ahead of the Winter 2023-24 Program after surveying alumni and determining that 85% would be accept $30/h.
At least from the MATS perspective, this seems quite wrong. Only ~20% of MATS scholars in the last ~4 programs have been undergrads. In the most recent application round, the dominant sources of applicants were, in order, personal recommendations, X posts, AI Safety Fundamentals courses, LessWrong, 80,000 Hours, then AI safety student groups. About half of accepted scholars tend to be students and the other half are working professionals.