dymphna

Karma: 3

dymphna 25 Jun 2012 0:36 UTC
0 points
in reply to: TheOtherDave’s comment on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?
I don’t really think it would be possible to do an experiment here because the very definition of “better” is a question of values, and different people have different values.

dymphna 24 Jun 2012 19:09 UTC
0 points
in reply to: fubarobfusco’s comment on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?

This is a position of profound submission to the universe. When we say “rationalist” here, we primarily don’t mean someone who has a commitment to a particular set of beliefs. We mean someone who wants their beliefs to be caused by the facts of the universe, whatever those might turn out to be.

Thank you for re-clarifying this (yes, I was aware that this was the LW position). But, do most LW’ers think that it should be everyone’s position?

Medieval Catholics (and some contemporary ones) wanted to make the whole world Catholic. Stalinists wanted to make the whole world Stalinist. In either case, I think the world would have turned out a much worse place had either one succeeded. To you, rationalism, empiricism and positivism might seem to exist in a different category, but to me any ideology or thought system that gets universalized will probably turn into More’s Utopia or Plato’s Republic. And, while interesting for a while, such places hardly seem very habitable in the long term.

One might then ask, what sort of world is most likely to cultivate and promote the kind of diversity you’re advocating here?

Heh, now there’s a question! I personally don’t believe in utopias, but I do believe in making the world better. The difficulty is that “better” means different things to different people, and this is something we can’t ever forget. To answer your question, I think that a society based on moderation and mutual respect/ tolerance for different beliefs is the best one. Canada’s multiculturalism policy comes to mind. There are many flaws with multiculturalism, as it certainly doesn’t guarantee that all social groups are treated fairly by those in power. However, having lived in Canada for some years, I find that this attempt at creating a multicultural society (where people are encouraged to maintain their cultural heritage and language) leads to a more diverse and interesting society than does the assimilationist attitude of the US (my home country) where there is greater pressure to give up old identities/values in order to fit in.

dymphna 24 Jun 2012 18:49 UTC
1 point
in reply to: Benquo’s comment on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?
Yes, I’d also really like to hear your thoughts.

dymphna 24 Jun 2012 18:35 UTC
2 points
in reply to: siodine’s comment on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?

I often see this in discussions or debates on religion. The only use for it is to bring disagreements onto a plane of relativism and thereby removing any possibility of conclusion. “I believe this, and you believe that, but aren’t we so similar in many ways? Let’s be tolerant of each other and allow for whatever beliefs we like.”

What’s wrong with this scenario? I thought that a big part of living in a liberal democracy involves tolerating those who are different from us. Why is a conclusion needed?

dymphna 19 Jun 2012 2:42 UTC
−3 points
in reply to: fubarobfusco’s comment on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?
“The most dangerous religious fundamentalisms lead people to do things such as blowing up buildings, committing mass murders, jailing and torturing people for apostasy, and throwing acid in the faces of schoolchildren. This occurs both when dangerous religious fundamentalists occupy positions of formal political power (governments), and when they do not (terrorist groups, militias, abortion-clinic bombers).”

Point taken. The phrase “most dangerous” iis hyperbolic. No, so far I don’t see any Less Wrongers blowing up buildings or committing mass murders. But, what is it that drives people to do such things? Is it as simple as, “God told me to do this?” I don’t think it’s usually that simple. I’m not sure what drives it, but I think that part of it is a basic human tendency to divide people up into groups of “we” and “they.” Most of us construct this kind of division to some degree, whether we realize it or not, but fundamentalists take it to the extreme. On LW I encounter this division quite often (sometimes in the tone of posts more than the content). I probably notice it so strongly because, as Manfred comments, I feel myself to be among the “them,” (and my natural reaction is to make the same sort of division in my own mind. While this division is nowhere near the extreme in the rationalist communities, I can definitely imagine it becoming so, particularly if technology advances in the ways that many Less Wrongers predict it will.

Some Less Wrongers appear to express the viewpoint that the world would be a better and happier place if all of us were to become rationalists, and I think that this is the attitude that I had in mind when I let the phrase “most dangerous fundamentalists” slip out. Medieval Catholics (and some contemporary ones) wanted to make the whole world Catholic. Stalinists wanted to make the whole world Stalinist. In either case, I think the world would have turned out a much worse place had either one succeeded. To you, rationalism, empiricism and positivism might seem to exist in a different category, but to me any ideology or thought system that gets universalized will probably turn into More’s Utopia or Plato’s Republic. And, while interesting for a while, such places hardly seem very habitable in the long term.

“Is it that just because we are totalizing and dogmatic about making people happy instead of about hating and killing them? (I am reminded of a Barry Goldwater quote about extremism and moderation.)”

I’d be interested in seeing that Goldwater quote. But, if Less Wrongers are totalizing and dogmatic about making people happy, then why on earth would you want to deconvert people from religion? Religious beliefs, practices, rituals, spiritualities, aesthetics, values, and communities bring vast amounts of happiness to people all over the world, every day. No, it’s not for everyone, but why try and take it away from the people who find so much happiness in it?

dymphna 18 Jun 2012 19:50 UTC
3 points
on: Thwarting a Catholic conversion?
Jay, I can certainly empathize with your concern for your friend. However, as a practicing Catholic I can assure you that your friend will not be surrounded by people trying to convince her that she needs to “repent” of her sexuality. There’s less that I can say about dark side epistemology (since you would probably consider me to be an adherent of it!) but I can assure you that Leah is not going to have piles of nonsensical doctrine shoved down her throat. She will be introduced to many ideas, but ultimately she herself will decide what to accept and what to reject (and I highly doubt that she will accept absolutely everything that the Church teaches—many Catholics don’t).

I must confess that, as an outsider to (but occasional reader of) Less Wrong, I find certain statements and arguments on this site to be just as totalizing and dogmatic as the most dangerous religious fundamentalism. There’s also a fair amount that I find personally offensive to my value system. However, whenever I find myself going into a nasty tirade against LW, my atheist rationalist friend (who introduced me to this site in the first place) urges me to remember that not all Less Wrongers are the same. Opinions about things like the Singularity vary greatly, as do values. And, there are even some theists on this site.

I can tell you that the same is true about Catholicism. It’s a very large organization with many people who interpret their religion in many different ways. Yes, there are many things wrong with the Church as an institution, but people know this and some are trying to reform these flaws (indeed, if Leah does convert, she will be a great one to do this). As for the epistemological side...I don’t think that Leah is going to reject scientific truths, if that is what worries you. She might just come to view them in a somewhat different way.

Having read Leah’s blog for a while, I know that she will respond very well to any challenge/debate you put forward. However, I would advise against trying to thwart her conversion. Ultimately, she has to make her own decisions. As others have said, listen to her and try your to understand the reasons for her conversion. Also, if you haven’t already, get to know a few Catholics. We could be wrong, but that doesn’t make us bad people.