In response to ChristianK, I hear that you would like more details and feel strait accounting would be useful. You are right that there is a difference between kissing someone without consent ( would also be messed up to get thrown out of a monastery for being kissed without consent) and the legal definition of rape. I believe my statement was that “consent was assumed without the practice of consent in a sexual encounter” which would indicate more than say being kissed. I will sit with whether or not I wish to give more details about this account. Thanks for bringing to my attention that this feels ambiguous.
In my original account written in a document that will soon be shared with the organizations board when finalized account covers 10 pages of play by play my experience at OAK plus 20 pages of interpretation and organizational feedback. A 30 page document is not an effective way to community to the general public. And I do not currently feel inclined to share that information with those whom do not have a direct leadership role or have an established relationship with myself at this time.
Please consider that my account is attempting to hold someone whom I once loved (as stated in my letter) and with whom I shared deep relationship with as gently as possible despite the impact of his and others actions on myself. And that crossing boundaries, sexual assault, and rape can happen in relationship at any time regardless of ones connection to an individual. The issue of consent is an incredibly difficult one to navigate given that many people have not been adequately taught. I may or may not choose to share further details about this initial encounter for a number of reasons as it is ultimately my personal story and a source of deep pain.
My account is meant to primarily focus on my broader concerns about the training as well as the response of the organization to this incident rather then the initial incident itself. Please consider that in any situation or degree of consent being violated that the subsequent response of the Monastic Academy to this incident was wildly inappropriate, sexist, excluded my voice and participation, and caused damage to emotionally, physically, and relationally. My story is ultimately one of a much broader conversation about safety and harm that needs to happen with the Monastic Academy’s broader community.
I believe my statement was that “consent was assumed without the practice of consent in a sexual encounter” which would indicate more than say being kissed.
It’s quite typical to assume in normal society consent based on implicit cues in many situations.
There are people who would say that having sex with someone on a first date after the person being really drunk would be a consent violation.
My account is meant to primarily focus on my broader concerns about the training as well as the response of the organization to this incident rather then the initial incident itself.
I don’t think it’s possible to discuss broader concerns well without grounding them in hard facts. You for example write “I experienced this environment as being designed to break me and as seriously impairing the agency and judgment of those involved. ”
This is again a layer of abstraction that doesn’t allow the reader to form his own view to what extend the enviroment is designed well but only allows the reader access to your judgement.
As I said I appreciate that you put the information in the open that you did (and personally weakly upvoted the post). If you intent is however
A 30 page document is not an effective way to community to the general public.
I disagree. I would appreciate more details out in the public. In the Leverage case having Zoe’s very detailed account out in public was very valuable for facilitating a good discussion about the harms of Leverage.
Thinking in public about organizational issues is also helpful to people to the broader community. There are other organizations that could face similar issues and publically talking about issues helps create common knowledge about what patterns are important when it comes to running organizations.
The letter could probably use greater clarity on events. There however is a substantial amount of information in the letter regarding recruitment practices, lack of informed consent, training risks and impacts, and lack of teacher/”staff” experience that I am guessing you didn’t have a few days ago. You are right that it can be helpful to think in public about organizational issues and that strategic focused documents can be helpful. You have stated your preferences for more detail and thorough documentation about what the environment is like are noted and maybe helpful in future statements.There are already collaborative efforts that have been and are working on this kind of documented effort to which I have contributed substantially that will be available when they are available.
That however, is NOT the purpose for THIS letter. It would be helpful to remember that you are NOT the primary audience for this letter (unless you have an undisclosed affiliation here.) It would also be helpful to remember that we are not entitled to people’s stories or more than they wish to share. Please notice that you are engaging with me and with events that were incredibly abusive and traumatic to me. As stated above this style if writing and response is not geared towards less wrong but I none the less thought it would be useful info to some people who maybe on the fence in this community. I am writing in a way that feels heartfelt, clear, and authentic for me. This is a extremely personal and emotional letter about my experience (and one that has been very painful and still is) and a call to action to the Monastic Academy and broader community members. Most of whom do have context for this environment and will not be surprised by statements such as “I experienced this environment as trying to break me...” This letter is very much for those community members who are out there hurting and feeling alone; whom already know what I’m talking about. I want them to know they are not alone. You have no idea what kind of messages I’ve been getting in ptivate. There are people whom have been waiting a decade for someone to speak out. Someone had to go first. Hopefully more will come forward when they are ready. The silence is over.
Based on your previous comments around consent I suggest you further engage with your own inner work and further education about how to better navigate consent.
In response to ChristianK, I hear that you would like more details and feel strait accounting would be useful. You are right that there is a difference between kissing someone without consent ( would also be messed up to get thrown out of a monastery for being kissed without consent) and the legal definition of rape. I believe my statement was that “consent was assumed without the practice of consent in a sexual encounter” which would indicate more than say being kissed. I will sit with whether or not I wish to give more details about this account. Thanks for bringing to my attention that this feels ambiguous.
In my original account written in a document that will soon be shared with the organizations board when finalized account covers 10 pages of play by play my experience at OAK plus 20 pages of interpretation and organizational feedback. A 30 page document is not an effective way to community to the general public. And I do not currently feel inclined to share that information with those whom do not have a direct leadership role or have an established relationship with myself at this time.
Please consider that my account is attempting to hold someone whom I once loved (as stated in my letter) and with whom I shared deep relationship with as gently as possible despite the impact of his and others actions on myself. And that crossing boundaries, sexual assault, and rape can happen in relationship at any time regardless of ones connection to an individual. The issue of consent is an incredibly difficult one to navigate given that many people have not been adequately taught. I may or may not choose to share further details about this initial encounter for a number of reasons as it is ultimately my personal story and a source of deep pain.
My account is meant to primarily focus on my broader concerns about the training as well as the response of the organization to this incident rather then the initial incident itself. Please consider that in any situation or degree of consent being violated that the subsequent response of the Monastic Academy to this incident was wildly inappropriate, sexist, excluded my voice and participation, and caused damage to emotionally, physically, and relationally. My story is ultimately one of a much broader conversation about safety and harm that needs to happen with the Monastic Academy’s broader community.
It’s quite typical to assume in normal society consent based on implicit cues in many situations.
There are people who would say that having sex with someone on a first date after the person being really drunk would be a consent violation.
I don’t think it’s possible to discuss broader concerns well without grounding them in hard facts. You for example write “I experienced this environment as being designed to break me and as seriously impairing the agency and judgment of those involved. ”
This is again a layer of abstraction that doesn’t allow the reader to form his own view to what extend the enviroment is designed well but only allows the reader access to your judgement.
As I said I appreciate that you put the information in the open that you did (and personally weakly upvoted the post). If you intent is however
I disagree. I would appreciate more details out in the public. In the Leverage case having Zoe’s very detailed account out in public was very valuable for facilitating a good discussion about the harms of Leverage.
Thinking in public about organizational issues is also helpful to people to the broader community. There are other organizations that could face similar issues and publically talking about issues helps create common knowledge about what patterns are important when it comes to running organizations.
The letter could probably use greater clarity on events. There however is a substantial amount of information in the letter regarding recruitment practices, lack of informed consent, training risks and impacts, and lack of teacher/”staff” experience that I am guessing you didn’t have a few days ago. You are right that it can be helpful to think in public about organizational issues and that strategic focused documents can be helpful. You have stated your preferences for more detail and thorough documentation about what the environment is like are noted and maybe helpful in future statements.There are already collaborative efforts that have been and are working on this kind of documented effort to which I have contributed substantially that will be available when they are available.
That however, is NOT the purpose for THIS letter. It would be helpful to remember that you are NOT the primary audience for this letter (unless you have an undisclosed affiliation here.) It would also be helpful to remember that we are not entitled to people’s stories or more than they wish to share. Please notice that you are engaging with me and with events that were incredibly abusive and traumatic to me. As stated above this style if writing and response is not geared towards less wrong but I none the less thought it would be useful info to some people who maybe on the fence in this community. I am writing in a way that feels heartfelt, clear, and authentic for me. This is a extremely personal and emotional letter about my experience (and one that has been very painful and still is) and a call to action to the Monastic Academy and broader community members. Most of whom do have context for this environment and will not be surprised by statements such as “I experienced this environment as trying to break me...” This letter is very much for those community members who are out there hurting and feeling alone; whom already know what I’m talking about. I want them to know they are not alone. You have no idea what kind of messages I’ve been getting in ptivate. There are people whom have been waiting a decade for someone to speak out. Someone had to go first. Hopefully more will come forward when they are ready. The silence is over.
Based on your previous comments around consent I suggest you further engage with your own inner work and further education about how to better navigate consent.
Thank you for your input and you’re welcome 🙏