What distinction are you making between “visualising” and “seeing”?
I’ve heard of that study about drawing bicycles. I can draw one just fine without having one before me. I have just done so, checked it, and every detail (that I included — this was just a two-minute sketch) was correct. Anyway, if people are as astonishingly bad at the task as the paper says, that just reflects on their memory, not the acuity of their mind’s eye. I expect there are people who can draw a map of Europe with all the country borders, whereas I probably wouldn’t even remember all of the countries.
Oh, that’s a good point. Here’s a freehand map of the US I drew last year (just the borders, not the outline). I feel like I must have been using my mind’s eye to draw it.
What distinction are you making between “visualising” and “seeing”?
Good question! By “seeing” I meant having qualia, an apparent subjective experience. By “visualizing” I meant...something like using the geometric intuitions you get by looking at stuff, but perhaps in a philosophical zombie sort of way? You could use non-visual intuitions to count the vertices on a polyhedron, like algebraic intuitions or 3D tactile intuitions (and I bet blind mathematicians do). I’m not using those. I’m thinking about a wireframe image, drawn flat.
I’m visualizing a rhombicosidodecahedron right now. If I ask myself “The pentagon on the right and the one hiding from view on the left—are they the same orientation?”, I’ll think “ahh, let’s see… The pentagon on the right connects through the squares to those three pentagons there, which interlock with those 2⁄4 pentagons there, which connect through squares to the one on the left, which, no, that left one is upside-down compared to the one on the right—the middle interlocking pentagons rotated the left assembly 36° compared to the right”. Or ask “that square between the right pentagon and the pentagon at 10:20 above it <mental point>. Does perspective mean the square’s drawn as a diamond, or a skewed rectangle, weird quadrilateral?” and I think “Nah, not diamond shaped—it’s a pretty rectangular trapezoid. The base is maybe 1.8x height? Though I’m not too good at guessing aspect ratios? Seems like I if I rotate the trapezoid I can fit 2 into the base but go over by a bit?”
I’m putting into words a thought process which is very visual, BUT there is almost no inner cinema going along with those visualizations. At most ghostly, wispy images, if that. A bit like the fleeting oscillating visual feeling you get when your left and right eyes are shown different colors?
Good question! By “seeing” I meant having qualia, an apparent subjective experience. By “visualizing” I meant...something like using the geometric intuitions you get by looking at stuff, but perhaps in a philosophical zombie sort of way?
I have qualia for imagined scenes. I’m not seeing them with my physical eyes, and they’re not superimposed on the visual field that comes from my physical eyes. It’s like they exist in a separate three-dimensional space that does not have any particular spatial relationship to the physical space around me.
What distinction are you making between “visualising” and “seeing”?
I’ve heard of that study about drawing bicycles. I can draw one just fine without having one before me. I have just done so, checked it, and every detail (that I included — this was just a two-minute sketch) was correct. Anyway, if people are as astonishingly bad at the task as the paper says, that just reflects on their memory, not the acuity of their mind’s eye. I expect there are people who can draw a map of Europe with all the country borders, whereas I probably wouldn’t even remember all of the countries.
Oh, that’s a good point. Here’s a freehand map of the US I drew last year (just the borders, not the outline). I feel like I must have been using my mind’s eye to draw it.
Good question! By “seeing” I meant having qualia, an apparent subjective experience. By “visualizing” I meant...something like using the geometric intuitions you get by looking at stuff, but perhaps in a philosophical zombie sort of way? You could use non-visual intuitions to count the vertices on a polyhedron, like algebraic intuitions or 3D tactile intuitions (and I bet blind mathematicians do). I’m not using those. I’m thinking about a wireframe image, drawn flat.
I’m visualizing a rhombicosidodecahedron right now. If I ask myself “The pentagon on the right and the one hiding from view on the left—are they the same orientation?”, I’ll think “ahh, let’s see… The pentagon on the right connects through the squares to those three pentagons there, which interlock with those 2⁄4 pentagons there, which connect through squares to the one on the left, which, no, that left one is upside-down compared to the one on the right—the middle interlocking pentagons rotated the left assembly 36° compared to the right”. Or ask “that square between the right pentagon and the pentagon at 10:20 above it <mental point>. Does perspective mean the square’s drawn as a diamond, or a skewed rectangle, weird quadrilateral?” and I think “Nah, not diamond shaped—it’s a pretty rectangular trapezoid. The base is maybe 1.8x height? Though I’m not too good at guessing aspect ratios? Seems like I if I rotate the trapezoid I can fit 2 into the base but go over by a bit?”
I’m putting into words a thought process which is very visual, BUT there is almost no inner cinema going along with those visualizations. At most ghostly, wispy images, if that. A bit like the fleeting oscillating visual feeling you get when your left and right eyes are shown different colors?
I have qualia for imagined scenes. I’m not seeing them with my physical eyes, and they’re not superimposed on the visual field that comes from my physical eyes. It’s like they exist in a separate three-dimensional space that does not have any particular spatial relationship to the physical space around me.