It’s also not always good advice. Sometimes you should just satisfice. Chess is often one of these times, as you have a clock. If you see something that wins a rook, and spend the rest of your time trying to win a queen, you’re not going to win the game.
Of course it isn’t. But I don’t think that’s a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker’s (sort of Lasker’s, anyway) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you’re playing a blitz game, you’re likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.
The fact is, however, that Lasker’s (sort of Lasker’s, anyway) quotation is useful most of the time
I don’t think that’s the case. Of LW I would expect that more people suffer from perfectionism than there are people who optimize for satisfaction too much.
This raises an interesting question—What should I do with Rationality Quotes entries which I think are preaching to the choir, i.e. they are good advice for most of the general population but most of the people who will actually read them here had better reverse? Should I upvote them or downvote them?
It’s not at all obvious to me that the failure mode of not looking for a better move when you’ve found a good one is more common than the failure mode of spending too long looking for a better move when you’ve found a good one—in general, I think the consensus is that people who are willing to satisfice actually end up happier with their final decisions than people who spend too long maximising, but I agree that this doesn’t apply in all areas, and that there are likely times when this would be useful advice.
In the particular example I gave, if you’ve already found a move that wins a rook, then it’s all-but irrelevant if you’re missing a better move that wins a queen, as winning a rook is already equivalent to winning the game, but there are obviously degrees of this (it’s obviously not irrelevant if you settle for winning a pawn and miss checkmate). This suggests you should be careful how you define a “satisficing” solution, but not necessarily that satisficing is a bad strategy (in the extreme, if your “good move” is a forced checkmate, then it’s obviously a waste of time to look for a “better move”, whatever that might mean).
Hm… I’m not sure you’re interpreting me all that charitably. You keep on mentioning a dichotomy between satisficing and maximizing, for instance, as if you think I’m advocating maximizing as the better option, but really, that’s not what I’m saying at all! I’m saying that regardless of whether you have a policy of satisficing or maximizing,both methods benefit from additional time spent thinking. Good satisficing =/= stopping at the first solution you see. This is especially common in programming, I find, where you generally aren’t a time limit (or at least, not a “sensitive” time limit in the sense that fifteen extra minutes will be significant), and yet people are often willing to settle for the first “working” solution they see, even though a little extra effort could have bought them a moderate-to-large increase in efficiency. You can consciously decide “I want to satisfice here, not maximize,” but if you have a policy of stopping at the first “acceptable” solution, you’ll miss a lot of stuff. I’m not saying satisficing is bad, or even that satisficing isn’t as good an option as maximizing; I’m saying that even when satisficing, you should still extend your search depth by a small amount to ensure you aren’t missing anything. (And I’m speaking from real life experience here when I say that yes, that is a common failure mode.)
In terms of the chess analogy (which incidentally I feel is getting somewhat stretched, but whatever), I note that you only mention options that are very extreme—things like losing rooks, queens, or getting checkmated, etc. Often, chess is more complicated than that. Should you move your knight to an outpost in the center of the board, or develop your bishop to a more active square? Should you castle, moving your king to safety, or should you try and recoup a lost pawn first? These are situations in which the “right” move isn’t at all obvious, and if you spot a single “good” move, you have no easy way of knowing if there’s not a better move lurking somewhere out there. Contrast the situation you presented involving winning a pawn versus checkmating your opponent; the correct move is easy to see there. In short, I feel your chess examples are a bit contrived, almost cherry-picked to support your position. (I’m not saying you actually did cherry-pick them, by the way; I’m just saying that’s how it sort of feels to me.)
So basically, to summarize my position: when you’re stuck dealing with a complicated situation, in chess and in life, halting your search at the first “acceptable” option is not a good idea. That’s my claim. Not “maximizing is better than satisficing”.
I’m saying that regardless of whether you have a policy of satisficing or maximizing, both methods benefit from additional time spent thinking.
Taken literally, this is obviously and trivially true. You get more resources, your solution is likely to improve.
But in the context, the benefit is not costless. Time (in particular in a chess game) is a precious resource—to justify spending it you need cost-benefit analysis.
Your position offers no criteria and no way to figure out when you’ve spent enough resources (time) and should stop—and that is the real issue at hand.
Time (in particular in a chess game) is a precious resource—to justify spending it you need cost-benefit analysis.
Position is also a precious resource in chess. You need to structure your play so that the trade-off between time and position is optimal, and cutting off your search the moment you think of a playable move is not that trade-off. Evidence in favor:
I’ve personally competed in several mid-to-high-level chess tournaments and have an ELO rating of 1853. Every time I’ve ever blundered, it’s been because of a failure to give the position a second look. Furthermore, I can’t recall a single time the act of giving the position a second look has ever led me to time trouble, except in the (trivial) sense that every second you use is precious.
I have personally interacted with a great deal of other high-rated players, all of whom agree that you should in general think through moves carefully and not just play the first good-looking move that you see.
Lasker, a world-champion-level player, was the one quoted as giving this advice, and according to Wikipedia (thanks, bentarm), the saying actually predates him. If the saying has survived this long, that’s evidence in favor of it being true.
Your position offers no criteria and no way to figure out when you’ve spent enough resources (time) and should stop—and that is the real issue at hand.
Nor am I claiming to offer such a way. I agree that the optimal configuration is difficult to identify, and furthermore that if it weren’t so, a great deal of economics would be vastly simpler. My claim is a far weaker one: that whatever the optimal configuration is, stopping after the first solution is not it. This may sound trivial, and to a regular LW reader, it very well may be, but based on my observations, very few regular (as in not explicitly interested in self-improvement) people actually apply this advice, so it does seem important enough to merit a rationality quote dedicated to it.
Perhaps lesson is that all such sayings mere wisdom-facets, not whole diamond. Appreciate the facet for its beauty, yes, but understand that there are others, including the one most opposite on the other side...perhaps should be something generally understood in thread such as this.
Do not sense real disagreement in this conversation. Thinking has benefits, all agree, and thinking has costs, all agree...doubt Lasker himself waited to move until he knew he had the most perfect move, and yet he no doubt lost and observed others losing because of a move played too rashly....
No, which is why I feel Lasker’s quote is a good rationality quote. If people are constantly expressing disagreement, that’s evidence that something’s wrong. (A decent level of disagreement is healthy, I feel, but not too much.) What happened is this: bentarm interpreted my position differently from what I intended and disagreed with his/her interpretation of my position, so I clarified said position and (hopefully) resolved the disagreement. If there’s no longer anyone arguing against me, then that means I accomplished what I aimed to do.
Of course it isn’t. But I don’t think that’s a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker’s (sort of) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you’re playing a blitz game, you’re likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.
It’s also not always good advice. Sometimes you should just satisfice. Chess is often one of these times, as you have a clock. If you see something that wins a rook, and spend the rest of your time trying to win a queen, you’re not going to win the game.
Of course it isn’t. But I don’t think that’s a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker’s (sort of Lasker’s, anyway) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you’re playing a blitz game, you’re likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.
I don’t think that’s the case. Of LW I would expect that more people suffer from perfectionism than there are people who optimize for satisfaction too much.
On LW, certainly. In general, no.
This raises an interesting question—What should I do with Rationality Quotes entries which I think are preaching to the choir, i.e. they are good advice for most of the general population but most of the people who will actually read them here had better reverse? Should I upvote them or downvote them?
Would you rather see more quotes like that?
Or fewer?
Or are you not sure?
It’s not at all obvious to me that the failure mode of not looking for a better move when you’ve found a good one is more common than the failure mode of spending too long looking for a better move when you’ve found a good one—in general, I think the consensus is that people who are willing to satisfice actually end up happier with their final decisions than people who spend too long maximising, but I agree that this doesn’t apply in all areas, and that there are likely times when this would be useful advice.
In the particular example I gave, if you’ve already found a move that wins a rook, then it’s all-but irrelevant if you’re missing a better move that wins a queen, as winning a rook is already equivalent to winning the game, but there are obviously degrees of this (it’s obviously not irrelevant if you settle for winning a pawn and miss checkmate). This suggests you should be careful how you define a “satisficing” solution, but not necessarily that satisficing is a bad strategy (in the extreme, if your “good move” is a forced checkmate, then it’s obviously a waste of time to look for a “better move”, whatever that might mean).
Hm… I’m not sure you’re interpreting me all that charitably. You keep on mentioning a dichotomy between satisficing and maximizing, for instance, as if you think I’m advocating maximizing as the better option, but really, that’s not what I’m saying at all! I’m saying that regardless of whether you have a policy of satisficing or maximizing, both methods benefit from additional time spent thinking. Good satisficing =/= stopping at the first solution you see. This is especially common in programming, I find, where you generally aren’t a time limit (or at least, not a “sensitive” time limit in the sense that fifteen extra minutes will be significant), and yet people are often willing to settle for the first “working” solution they see, even though a little extra effort could have bought them a moderate-to-large increase in efficiency. You can consciously decide “I want to satisfice here, not maximize,” but if you have a policy of stopping at the first “acceptable” solution, you’ll miss a lot of stuff. I’m not saying satisficing is bad, or even that satisficing isn’t as good an option as maximizing; I’m saying that even when satisficing, you should still extend your search depth by a small amount to ensure you aren’t missing anything. (And I’m speaking from real life experience here when I say that yes, that is a common failure mode.)
In terms of the chess analogy (which incidentally I feel is getting somewhat stretched, but whatever), I note that you only mention options that are very extreme—things like losing rooks, queens, or getting checkmated, etc. Often, chess is more complicated than that. Should you move your knight to an outpost in the center of the board, or develop your bishop to a more active square? Should you castle, moving your king to safety, or should you try and recoup a lost pawn first? These are situations in which the “right” move isn’t at all obvious, and if you spot a single “good” move, you have no easy way of knowing if there’s not a better move lurking somewhere out there. Contrast the situation you presented involving winning a pawn versus checkmating your opponent; the correct move is easy to see there. In short, I feel your chess examples are a bit contrived, almost cherry-picked to support your position. (I’m not saying you actually did cherry-pick them, by the way; I’m just saying that’s how it sort of feels to me.)
So basically, to summarize my position: when you’re stuck dealing with a complicated situation, in chess and in life, halting your search at the first “acceptable” option is not a good idea. That’s my claim. Not “maximizing is better than satisficing”.
Taken literally, this is obviously and trivially true. You get more resources, your solution is likely to improve.
But in the context, the benefit is not costless. Time (in particular in a chess game) is a precious resource—to justify spending it you need cost-benefit analysis.
Your position offers no criteria and no way to figure out when you’ve spent enough resources (time) and should stop—and that is the real issue at hand.
Position is also a precious resource in chess. You need to structure your play so that the trade-off between time and position is optimal, and cutting off your search the moment you think of a playable move is not that trade-off. Evidence in favor:
I’ve personally competed in several mid-to-high-level chess tournaments and have an ELO rating of 1853. Every time I’ve ever blundered, it’s been because of a failure to give the position a second look. Furthermore, I can’t recall a single time the act of giving the position a second look has ever led me to time trouble, except in the (trivial) sense that every second you use is precious.
I have personally interacted with a great deal of other high-rated players, all of whom agree that you should in general think through moves carefully and not just play the first good-looking move that you see.
Lasker, a world-champion-level player, was the one quoted as giving this advice, and according to Wikipedia (thanks, bentarm), the saying actually predates him. If the saying has survived this long, that’s evidence in favor of it being true.
Nor am I claiming to offer such a way. I agree that the optimal configuration is difficult to identify, and furthermore that if it weren’t so, a great deal of economics would be vastly simpler. My claim is a far weaker one: that whatever the optimal configuration is, stopping after the first solution is not it. This may sound trivial, and to a regular LW reader, it very well may be, but based on my observations, very few regular (as in not explicitly interested in self-improvement) people actually apply this advice, so it does seem important enough to merit a rationality quote dedicated to it.
By the way, in certain situations it’s analytically solvable—see e.g. here.
That’s really interesting. Thanks for the link!
You’re successfully demolishing a strawman. Is anyone claiming what you are arguing against?
Perhaps lesson is that all such sayings mere wisdom-facets, not whole diamond. Appreciate the facet for its beauty, yes, but understand that there are others, including the one most opposite on the other side...perhaps should be something generally understood in thread such as this.
Do not sense real disagreement in this conversation. Thinking has benefits, all agree, and thinking has costs, all agree...doubt Lasker himself waited to move until he knew he had the most perfect move, and yet he no doubt lost and observed others losing because of a move played too rashly....
That’s the optimal situation :-) Sometimes such sayings are a body part of an elephant. And occasionally—of a donkey X-D
No, which is why I feel Lasker’s quote is a good rationality quote. If people are constantly expressing disagreement, that’s evidence that something’s wrong. (A decent level of disagreement is healthy, I feel, but not too much.) What happened is this: bentarm interpreted my position differently from what I intended and disagreed with his/her interpretation of my position, so I clarified said position and (hopefully) resolved the disagreement. If there’s no longer anyone arguing against me, then that means I accomplished what I aimed to do.
Of course it isn’t. But I don’t think that’s a very good standard to be holding most forms of advice to. Very little advice is always good advice; nearly all sayings have exceptions. The fact is, however, that Lasker’s (sort of) quotation is useful most of the time, both in chess and out of chess (since unless you’re playing a blitz game, you’re likely to have plenty of time to think), and for a rationality quote, that suffices.