There aren’t any inherently, unchangeably, mental concepts.
From what I can observe in your position it seems like you are treating consciousness in exactly this way. For example, could you explain how it could possibly be challenged by evidence? How could it change or be refined if we say “introspection therefore consciousness”?
The very fact of introspection indicates that consciousness, by a fairly minimal definition, is existent.
I don’t see how this follows. As there are a whole host of definitions of consciousness, could you explicitly select a definition, and explain why you feel that introspection proves that particular definintion (not just a general sense of introspectionyness) must follow? Consciousness definitions usually imply some form of discrete mental agent, endowed with certain fairly significant properties. I don’t see how that follows from “person A can’t see what person B is thinking”, unless you invoke dualism. We need to understand what thought is first, and we would need a very compelling reason a physicalist would seek to derive concepts to deal with thought from disembodied thought itself rather than the physical world as they observe it.
Positions:
1 Consciousness doesn’t exist at all.(Eliminativism) 2 Consciousness exists as a reducible physical phenomenon (physicalism) 3 Consciousness exists as an irreducible non physical phenomenal.(dualism)
I’m not conflating these positions as I feel you probably think I am, merely holding that (2) is not logically consistent. If (2) was “when we observe the brain we see a discrete phenomenon that we call consciousness”, I would say that it is more logically consistent, though I would call for a different word that isn’t historically associated with dualism.
Why do you ignore introspection? Why not look down the telescope?
I don’t wish to ignore it. I merely think a consistent physicalist would categorise it, like everything else, as a physical process, and therefore seek to understand and explain it using empirical evidence rather than purely mental concepts that don’t seem to exist in physical space?
I finally note you refuse again to accept any burden of evidence for your claims, and merely say the field generally supports your position. Anyone can say that for any position. I think you should drop claims of conventionality and stick to the reasoning and refutations that you propose. Noone expects references for logical statements, but claims that you have the support of most philosophers should be supported.
There aren’t any inherently, unchangeably, mental concepts.From what I can observe in your position it seems like you are treating consciousness in exactly this way. For example, could you explain how it could possibly be challenged by evidence?
I have put forward the existence of introspection as evidence for the existence of consciousness .
It is therefore logically possible for the existence of consciousness to be challenged by the non existence of introspection.
It’s not actually possible because introspection actually exists. The empirical claim that consciousness exists is supported by the empirical evidence,like any other. (Not empirical in your gerrymandered sense, of course, but empirical in the sense of not being apriori or tautologous).
The very fact of introspection indicates that consciousness, by a fairly minimal definition, is existent.
I don’t see how this follows.
As there are a whole host of definitions of consciousness, could you explicitly select a definition, and explain why you feel that introspection proves that particular definintion
Already answered: again,
Consciousness =def self awareness
Introspection =def self awareness
(not just a general sense of introspectionyness) must follow? Consciousness definitions usually imply some form of discrete mental agent, endowed with certain fairly significant properties.
Is the ability to introspect not an unusual property? Are we actually differing, apart from your higher level of vagueness?
I don’t see how that follows from “person A can’t see what person B is thinking”,
Person B can tell what person B is thinking, as well. That is important.
unless you invoke dualism. We need to understand what thought is first, and we would need a very compelling reason a physicalist would seek to derive concepts to deal with thought from disembodied thought itself
Who said anything about disembodied thought.
rather than the physical world as they observe it.Positions:1 Consciousness doesn’t exist at all.(Eliminativism) 2 Consciousness exists as a reducible physical phenomenon (physicalism) 3 Consciousness exists as an irreducible non physical phenomenal.(dualism)I’m not conflating these positions as I feel you probably think I am, merely holding that (2) is not logically consistent.
So what is the actual contradiction?
If (2) was “when we observe the brain we see a discrete phenomenon that we call consciousness”, I would say that it is more logically consistent, though I would call for a different word that isn’t historically associated with dualism.
Why a discrete phenomenon?
Is a historical association enough to make an inconsistency?
Why do you ignore introspection? Why not look down the telescope?I don’t wish to ignore it. I merely think a consistent physicalist would categorise it, like everything else, as a physical process, and therefore seek to understand and explain it using empirical evidence rather than purely mental concepts that don’t seem to exist in physical space?
I have given a detailed explanation as to why consciousness is not an inherently mental concept. You need to respond to that, and not just repeat your claim.
I finally note you refuse again to accept any burden of evidence for your claims,
False. Here is the explanation again:
“Both versions are naive. The explanatory process doesn’t start with a perfect set of concepts...reality isn’t pre-labelled. The explanatory process start with a set of “folk” or prima facie concepts, each of which may be retained, modified, or discarded as things are better understood. You cant start from nothing because you have to be able to state your explanandum, you have to state which phenomenon you are trying to explain. But having to have to a starting point does not prejudice the process forever, since the modification and abandonment options are available. For instance, the concept of phlogiston was abandoned, whereas the concept the atom was modified to no longer require indivisibility. Heat is a favourite example of a reductive explanation. The concept of heat as something to be explained was retained, but the earlier, non reductive explanation of heat as a kind of substance was abandoned. This style of explanation is what non eliminate physicalists, the type 2 position, are aiming at.”
Your engagement here is insincere. You argue based on to cherry-picking and distorting my statements. You simply ignore the explanations given and say “you haven’t given justification” and then you give off-hand vague answers for my own queries and then state “already answered”. I’m done with this.
From what I can observe in your position it seems like you are treating consciousness in exactly this way. For example, could you explain how it could possibly be challenged by evidence? How could it change or be refined if we say “introspection therefore consciousness”?
I don’t see how this follows. As there are a whole host of definitions of consciousness, could you explicitly select a definition, and explain why you feel that introspection proves that particular definintion (not just a general sense of introspectionyness) must follow? Consciousness definitions usually imply some form of discrete mental agent, endowed with certain fairly significant properties. I don’t see how that follows from “person A can’t see what person B is thinking”, unless you invoke dualism. We need to understand what thought is first, and we would need a very compelling reason a physicalist would seek to derive concepts to deal with thought from disembodied thought itself rather than the physical world as they observe it.
Positions:
I’m not conflating these positions as I feel you probably think I am, merely holding that (2) is not logically consistent. If (2) was “when we observe the brain we see a discrete phenomenon that we call consciousness”, I would say that it is more logically consistent, though I would call for a different word that isn’t historically associated with dualism.
I don’t wish to ignore it. I merely think a consistent physicalist would categorise it, like everything else, as a physical process, and therefore seek to understand and explain it using empirical evidence rather than purely mental concepts that don’t seem to exist in physical space?
I finally note you refuse again to accept any burden of evidence for your claims, and merely say the field generally supports your position. Anyone can say that for any position. I think you should drop claims of conventionality and stick to the reasoning and refutations that you propose. Noone expects references for logical statements, but claims that you have the support of most philosophers should be supported.
EDIT> Reply bait oh man
I have put forward the existence of introspection as evidence for the existence of consciousness . It is therefore logically possible for the existence of consciousness to be challenged by the non existence of introspection. It’s not actually possible because introspection actually exists. The empirical claim that consciousness exists is supported by the empirical evidence,like any other. (Not empirical in your gerrymandered sense, of course, but empirical in the sense of not being apriori or tautologous).
Already answered: again,
Consciousness =def self awareness
Introspection =def self awareness
Is the ability to introspect not an unusual property? Are we actually differing, apart from your higher level of vagueness?
Person B can tell what person B is thinking, as well. That is important.
Who said anything about disembodied thought.
So what is the actual contradiction?
Why a discrete phenomenon?
Is a historical association enough to make an inconsistency?
I have given a detailed explanation as to why consciousness is not an inherently mental concept. You need to respond to that, and not just repeat your claim.
False. Here is the explanation again:
“Both versions are naive. The explanatory process doesn’t start with a perfect set of concepts...reality isn’t pre-labelled. The explanatory process start with a set of “folk” or prima facie concepts, each of which may be retained, modified, or discarded as things are better understood. You cant start from nothing because you have to be able to state your explanandum, you have to state which phenomenon you are trying to explain. But having to have to a starting point does not prejudice the process forever, since the modification and abandonment options are available. For instance, the concept of phlogiston was abandoned, whereas the concept the atom was modified to no longer require indivisibility. Heat is a favourite example of a reductive explanation. The concept of heat as something to be explained was retained, but the earlier, non reductive explanation of heat as a kind of substance was abandoned. This style of explanation is what non eliminate physicalists, the type 2 position, are aiming at.”
Your engagement here is insincere. You argue based on to cherry-picking and distorting my statements. You simply ignore the explanations given and say “you haven’t given justification” and then you give off-hand vague answers for my own queries and then state “already answered”. I’m done with this.