Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true.
Ye say that this people is a guilty and a fallen people, because of the transgression of a parent. Behold, I say that a child is not guilty because of its parents.
And ye also say that Christ shall come. But behold, I say that ye do not know that there shall be a Christ. And ye say also that he shall be slain for the sins of the world –
And thus ye lead away this people after the foolish traditions of your fathers, and according to your own desires; and ye keep them down, even as it were in bondage, that ye may glut yourselves with the labors of their hands, that they durst not look up with boldness, and that they durst not enjoy their rights and privileges.
Yea, they durst not make use of that which is their own lest they should offend their priests, who do yoke them according to their desires, and have brought them to believe, by their traditions and their dreams and their whims and their visions and their pretended mysteries, that they should, if they did not do according to their words, offend some unknown being, who they say is God—a being who never has been seen or known, who never was nor ever will be.
-- The Book of Mormon (Alma 30.24-28)
Edit: I’m mildly surprised by the reactions to this quote. The thing I find interesting about it is that Joseph Smith was apparently sufficiently familiar with Voltairesque anti-Christian ideas that he could relay them coherently and with some gusto. This goes some way towards passing the ideological Turing test.
I’m hardly an expert on the Book of Mormon, but this quote surprised me so I googled it. It appears to be an accurate quote but is not fully attributed. As best I can make out, the speaker is the antichrist (or some such evil character; not sure on the exact mythology in play here).
Failure to note that means this quote gives either an incorrect view of the Book of Mormon, or of the significance of the text, or both.
When quoting fiction, I recommend identifying both the character and the author. E.g.
Ye say that those ancient prophecies are true. Behold, I say that ye do not know that they are true.
--Korihor in the The Book of Mormon (Alma 30.24-28); Joseph Smith, 1830
Having said all that, it’s still a damn good rationality quote.
Ah, of course, because it’s more important to signal one’s pure, untainted epistemic rationality than to actually get anything done in life, which might require interacting with outsiders.
Upvoted because that really is a failure mode worth keeping in mind, but I don’t think it’s responsible for the attitude towards religion around here; I think that’s a plain old founder effect.
Ah, of course, because it’s more important to signal one’s pure, untainted epistemic rationality than to actually get anything done in life, which might require interacting with outsiders.
This is a failure mode I worry about, but I’m not sure ironic atheist re-appropriation of religious texts is going to turn off anyone we had a chance of attracting in the first place. Will reconsider this position if someone says, “oh yeah, my deconversion process was totally slowed down by stuff like that from atheists,” but I’d be surprised.
“Pick a side and stick with it, supporting your friends and bashing your enemies at every cost-effective opportunity” is the dominant strategy in factional politics much the same way tit-for-tat is dominant in iterative prisoner’s dilemma. Generosity to strangers and mercy to enemies are so heavily encouraged because in the absence of that encouragement they’re the rare, virtuous exception.
Yes, obviously we have to interact with outsiders. That’s what makes them outsiders, rather than meaningless hypothetical aliens beyond our light-cone. The question is, should we be interacting with organized religion by trying to ally with, or at least avoid threatening, the people in charge? Or by threatening them so comprehensively that (figuratively speaking) we destroy their armies and take their cattle for our own?
The antichrist is a hypothetical figure who poses the greatest possible ideological threat, an exploit against which the overwhelming majority of Christianity’s (worldly) resources and personnel cannot be secured. The popular theory is, that individual’s public actions would trigger the ultimate ‘evaporative cooling’ event. Everybody who doesn’t really believe, everybody who just checks “christian” on the census form and shows up to church for the social network and the pancakes, will stop doing so. In short, the sanity waterline would rise.
The antichrist is a hypothetical figure who poses the greatest possible ideological threat, an exploit against which the overwhelming majority of Christianity’s (worldly) resources and personnel cannot be secured. The popular theory is, that individual’s public actions would trigger the ultimate ‘evaporative cooling’ event. Everybody who doesn’t really believe, everybody who just checks “christian” on the census form and shows up to church for the social network and the pancakes, will stop doing so.
That’s nice, but I’m Jewish ;-). Or in other words, the very nature of an “antichrist” pins you to opposing one kind of religion in specific, and also pins you to moral positions you probably don’t want to take. It’s the ultimate sin of privileging the hypothesis: you’ve assumed it’s a Christian world you have to persuade away from their Christianity.
(In real life, I would argue the greatest utility to be gained from deconversions right now is in the Muslim world, where one currently finds the greatest amount of religious violence over the smallest differences. You could tell me to go become the Anti-Muhammad, but again, I’m already Jewish.)
Remember, the Antichrist is also puppy-kickingly evil. You don’t hate puppies, do you? Then why are you signing up for a role that outright requires you to kick them?
Are you sure there’s not some other evil villain you’d prefer to be?
-- The Book of Mormon (Alma 30.24-28)
Edit: I’m mildly surprised by the reactions to this quote. The thing I find interesting about it is that Joseph Smith was apparently sufficiently familiar with Voltairesque anti-Christian ideas that he could relay them coherently and with some gusto. This goes some way towards passing the ideological Turing test.
I’m hardly an expert on the Book of Mormon, but this quote surprised me so I googled it. It appears to be an accurate quote but is not fully attributed. As best I can make out, the speaker is the antichrist (or some such evil character; not sure on the exact mythology in play here).
Failure to note that means this quote gives either an incorrect view of the Book of Mormon, or of the significance of the text, or both.
When quoting fiction, I recommend identifying both the character and the author. E.g.
--Korihor in the The Book of Mormon (Alma 30.24-28); Joseph Smith, 1830
Having said all that, it’s still a damn good rationality quote.
I would think it’s bad publicity for us to explicitly note a resemblance to antichrist-type characters.
Unless we’re trying to appeal to contrarians.
Considering how much hating on religion there already is around here, I don’t think there’s much left to lose on that front.
Ah, of course, because it’s more important to signal one’s pure, untainted epistemic rationality than to actually get anything done in life, which might require interacting with outsiders.
Upvoted because that really is a failure mode worth keeping in mind, but I don’t think it’s responsible for the attitude towards religion around here; I think that’s a plain old founder effect.
This is a failure mode I worry about, but I’m not sure ironic atheist re-appropriation of religious texts is going to turn off anyone we had a chance of attracting in the first place. Will reconsider this position if someone says, “oh yeah, my deconversion process was totally slowed down by stuff like that from atheists,” but I’d be surprised.
“Pick a side and stick with it, supporting your friends and bashing your enemies at every cost-effective opportunity” is the dominant strategy in factional politics much the same way tit-for-tat is dominant in iterative prisoner’s dilemma. Generosity to strangers and mercy to enemies are so heavily encouraged because in the absence of that encouragement they’re the rare, virtuous exception.
Yes, obviously we have to interact with outsiders. That’s what makes them outsiders, rather than meaningless hypothetical aliens beyond our light-cone. The question is, should we be interacting with organized religion by trying to ally with, or at least avoid threatening, the people in charge? Or by threatening them so comprehensively that (figuratively speaking) we destroy their armies and take their cattle for our own?
The antichrist is a hypothetical figure who poses the greatest possible ideological threat, an exploit against which the overwhelming majority of Christianity’s (worldly) resources and personnel cannot be secured. The popular theory is, that individual’s public actions would trigger the ultimate ‘evaporative cooling’ event. Everybody who doesn’t really believe, everybody who just checks “christian” on the census form and shows up to church for the social network and the pancakes, will stop doing so. In short, the sanity waterline would rise.
That’s nice, but I’m Jewish ;-). Or in other words, the very nature of an “antichrist” pins you to opposing one kind of religion in specific, and also pins you to moral positions you probably don’t want to take. It’s the ultimate sin of privileging the hypothesis: you’ve assumed it’s a Christian world you have to persuade away from their Christianity.
(In real life, I would argue the greatest utility to be gained from deconversions right now is in the Muslim world, where one currently finds the greatest amount of religious violence over the smallest differences. You could tell me to go become the Anti-Muhammad, but again, I’m already Jewish.)
Remember, the Antichrist is also puppy-kickingly evil. You don’t hate puppies, do you? Then why are you signing up for a role that outright requires you to kick them?
Are you sure there’s not some other evil villain you’d prefer to be?