I think there’s also a way the Debate and Collaborate clusters interact that is worth pointing out.
Within a Collaborate space, Debate is unwelcome. If you come and start trying to Debate you’re breaking the norms in a destructive way that wrecks what Collaborate is about.
Within a Debate space, Collaborate is maybe perceived as “too nice” or “pulling punches” but doesn’t wreck Debate. If you Collaborate within a Debate space it’s like you’re imposing extra rules on yourself that mean you give up some ways you could have expressed yourself (within the debate-as-combat metaphor, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or tying your hands behind your back), and people may think you’re less serious about your point than you are because you didn’t present it as forcefully as you would have under Debate culture, but you could still get along.
Both Debate and Collaborate are problems for Nice.
If we go with my 4 clusters and include Asshole it’s like:
Nice <~ Collaborate <~ Debate <~ Asshole
You can always use a lower one in a higher one, but you can’t use a higher one in a lower one.
People playing nice and being polite don’t want their positions analyze, even in a collaborative way; they will view that as adversarial because in that way of interacting any critical consideration is viewed as adversarial. The only correct responses within nice are those that support and accept and don’t question for any purpose other than learning more and to not point out contradictions (to create cognitive dissonance in an interlocutor in nice culture would be quite rude!).
I think there’s also a way the Debate and Collaborate clusters interact that is worth pointing out.
Within a Collaborate space, Debate is unwelcome. If you come and start trying to Debate you’re breaking the norms in a destructive way that wrecks what Collaborate is about.
Within a Debate space, Collaborate is maybe perceived as “too nice” or “pulling punches” but doesn’t wreck Debate. If you Collaborate within a Debate space it’s like you’re imposing extra rules on yourself that mean you give up some ways you could have expressed yourself (within the debate-as-combat metaphor, it’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or tying your hands behind your back), and people may think you’re less serious about your point than you are because you didn’t present it as forcefully as you would have under Debate culture, but you could still get along.
Both Debate and Collaborate are problems for Nice.
If we go with my 4 clusters and include Asshole it’s like:
Nice <~ Collaborate <~ Debate <~ Asshole
You can always use a lower one in a higher one, but you can’t use a higher one in a lower one.
See Abram Demski’s Combat vs Nurture and Meta-Contrarianism for (what I think of) as a more fleshed out version of this thought.
How does Collaborate break Nice?
(The ordering is a great idea btw.!)
People playing nice and being polite don’t want their positions analyze, even in a collaborative way; they will view that as adversarial because in that way of interacting any critical consideration is viewed as adversarial. The only correct responses within nice are those that support and accept and don’t question for any purpose other than learning more and to not point out contradictions (to create cognitive dissonance in an interlocutor in nice culture would be quite rude!).