Oh the irony. The last link in the OP specifically discusses exactly this scenario.
While the outcome for a woman targeted by a man like this is poor, the damage done to the group by all the other men staying silent (or outright supporting him) is huge. Really, this isn’t even buried in the comments, this is the whole point of the two letters discussed in that link.
I can’t speak to whether there are problems of this sort in LW meetups, but right here is our evidence of it here in LW comments.
I understand concerns about censorship, arbitrary moderation, special treatment, etc, but everyone who downvoted Alicorn and upvoted wedrifid here has also sent a message of tacit support for SilasBarta and a very clear message to any other woman here.
From my link above, edited:
Step 1: A creepy dude does creepy, entitled shit and makes women feel unsafe {in LW}
Step 2: The women speak up about it {in LW}
Step 3: It gets written off as “not a big deal” or “he probably didn’t mean it” or “he’s not a bad guy, really.” {...}
Step 4: Everyone is worried about hurting creepy dude’s feelings or making it weird for creepy dude. Better yet,
everyone is worried about how the other dudes in the friend group will feel if they are called out for enabling
creepy dude. Women are worried that if they push the issue, that the entire friend group will side with creepy
dude or that they’ll be blamed for causing “drama.” {...}
Step 5: Creepy dude creeps on with his creepy self. He’s learned that there are no real (i.e. “disapproval &
pushback from dudes and dude society”) consequences to his actions. Women feel creeped out and
unsafe. Some of them decide to take a firm stand against creeping and not {participate in LW} anymore.
{...} Some of the woman decide to just quietly put up with it, because they’ve learned that no one will really side
with them and it’s easier to go along than to lose one’s entire community. The whole group works around this
missing stair.
By this exact scenario, do you mean something TOTALLY different? disagreeing with someone who makes public comments on an internet forum is not “creepy entitled shit” (you wouldn’t even have thought to make this accusation here if SilasBarta was female and Eliezer was the target) and even if we assume that the original situation of banning him from responding to her was totally justified (I don’t know, I haven’t read the backdrama), then it’s still ridiculous for Alicorn to respond to a thread SilasBarta is talking in without him being able to reply. I’m not trying to defend anything SilasBarta did in the past, I’m trying to defend conversation. If you have a restraining order against someone, you shouldn’t walk right up to THEM and force them to leave wherever they happen to be.
(you wouldn’t even have thought to make this accusation here if SilasBarta was female and Eliezer was the target)
Agreed, and I think that says something interesting and useful. Symmetry is not a useful tool here.
If there’s broader interest in seeing some attempt at a rationalist view of privilege I’m keen to get whatever help is available, and take it to a separate Discussion.
I would be interested in seeing some attempt at a rationalist view of privilege, however I’m not sure that it would be welcome here; also I do think there are many advantages in trying to stick to the “no mindkiller topics” rule. Do you have a personal blog that you could post it on? If you do decide post it on LW I would recommend using the open thread, rather than the discussion or main section.
I suspect if I were LW-high-status, I could politely point out that while we’ve both argued from assertions, one of us has expanded on their assertion, and one of us has not.
Unless you mean “that linked post does not discuss LW or any of the individuals you reference, so claiming it specifically discusses exactly this scenario is trivially false”? I have no objection to curbing my hyperbole with an edit.
I take from your vehemence that your disagreement is more fundamental though. Do you have more words there you’re willing to add, here or in PM?
I suspect if I were LW-high-status, I could politely point out that while we’ve both argued from assertions, one of us has expanded on their assertion, and one of us has not.
What is it about being low status that makes you think you are better served by making the claim passively aggressively rather than politely? Politeness usually more important when status is lacking, not less. Or do you consider this style to be even more polite than, well, pointing out politely?
As it happens I have expanded rather a lot in my original message. I chose not to expand further in response to either you or bogus because I didn’t see benefit to such engagement.
I take from your vehemence that your disagreement is more fundamental though.
The thing in the OP is bad. Replying to public comments isn’t. That is all.
Oh the irony. The last link in the OP specifically discusses exactly this scenario.
No way. Hounding users on an internet site can cause a lot of annoyance and status problems, but it’s not creepy, i.e. it entails no shared threat of bodily harm. People routinely get away with extremely weird behavior on internet groups, even though corresponding behaviors (even something as mild as a heated social confrontation) would get them shunned and ostracized, or perhaps physically assaulted and injured, in a real-world actual community where bodily harm considerations are critical. There is nothing wrong with this persay—it just takes some getting used to.
Hounding someone, even if there are no threats, can turn an online group into no fun for them.
I’m not convinced it’s true that all female fury at male inappropriate attention is based in fear of physical harm. However, large amounts of inappropriate attention can be a huge attention and energy drain—mental cpus are a limited resource.
No way. Hounding users on an internet site can cause a lot of annoyance and status problems, but it’s not creepy, i.e. it entails no shared threat of bodily harm.
I disagree with your definition of “creepy”. However, whether we define the word that way or not, would you agree that it is behaviour worth discouraging?
It is one thing to disagree with a view that someone is expressing. It is quite another to follow that person around, disproportionately, in order to find opportunities to disagree specifically with them, (whether that’s in order to make them feel unwelcome and drive them out, or whether via some twisted logic the hounder feels it gains them dominance or even sees it as courting behaviour).
Just confirming: are you disagreeing because link posited risk of escalation to assault which I agree seems impossible in a purely online context?
I drew the analogy because it called out the toxic effects on a community, and that in many ways the toxicity is not that there was a creeper, but that there is much signalling in their support that has follow-on effects.
Assuming those claimed signalling secondary losses are correct, I don’t see anything specific to an online context that would be immune. The “risk of escalation” discussed there seems severable from its other points.
I am disagreeing because I regard what you call “risk of escalation to assault” (or, more generally: risks of bodily harm and benefits from tightly-knit social cooperation) as a critical determinant of social interaction. It is very hard to meaningfully compare real-world and online contexts, much less regard them as “the exact same scenario”.
(Indeed, I have jokingly argued before that we should totally deprecate and taboo the term “community” as referring to online social groups, since it tends to promote this very kind of ontological confusion.)
As for your question about “toxicity”, let’s just say that this particular discussion has been held already. If anything, LW has seemed to err towards taking complaints about divisive or disruptive behavior more seriously than they otherwise would, especially when outgroup status is a factor.
Oh the irony. The last link in the OP specifically discusses exactly this scenario.
While the outcome for a woman targeted by a man like this is poor, the damage done to the group by all the other men staying silent (or outright supporting him) is huge. Really, this isn’t even buried in the comments, this is the whole point of the two letters discussed in that link.
I can’t speak to whether there are problems of this sort in LW meetups, but right here is our evidence of it here in LW comments.
I understand concerns about censorship, arbitrary moderation, special treatment, etc, but everyone who downvoted Alicorn and upvoted wedrifid here has also sent a message of tacit support for SilasBarta and a very clear message to any other woman here.
From my link above, edited:
The Geek Social Fallacies seem rather apt here, too.
(Edit to fix square bracket use)
By this exact scenario, do you mean something TOTALLY different? disagreeing with someone who makes public comments on an internet forum is not “creepy entitled shit” (you wouldn’t even have thought to make this accusation here if SilasBarta was female and Eliezer was the target) and even if we assume that the original situation of banning him from responding to her was totally justified (I don’t know, I haven’t read the backdrama), then it’s still ridiculous for Alicorn to respond to a thread SilasBarta is talking in without him being able to reply. I’m not trying to defend anything SilasBarta did in the past, I’m trying to defend conversation. If you have a restraining order against someone, you shouldn’t walk right up to THEM and force them to leave wherever they happen to be.
Agreed, and I think that says something interesting and useful. Symmetry is not a useful tool here.
If there’s broader interest in seeing some attempt at a rationalist view of privilege I’m keen to get whatever help is available, and take it to a separate Discussion.
I would be interested in seeing some attempt at a rationalist view of privilege, however I’m not sure that it would be welcome here; also I do think there are many advantages in trying to stick to the “no mindkiller topics” rule. Do you have a personal blog that you could post it on? If you do decide post it on LW I would recommend using the open thread, rather than the discussion or main section.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTJLFgKoWk&feature=player_detailpage#t=109s
No. It. Does. Not.
I suspect if I were LW-high-status, I could politely point out that while we’ve both argued from assertions, one of us has expanded on their assertion, and one of us has not.
Unless you mean “that linked post does not discuss LW or any of the individuals you reference, so claiming it specifically discusses exactly this scenario is trivially false”? I have no objection to curbing my hyperbole with an edit.
I take from your vehemence that your disagreement is more fundamental though. Do you have more words there you’re willing to add, here or in PM?
What is it about being low status that makes you think you are better served by making the claim passively aggressively rather than politely? Politeness usually more important when status is lacking, not less. Or do you consider this style to be even more polite than, well, pointing out politely?
As it happens I have expanded rather a lot in my original message. I chose not to expand further in response to either you or bogus because I didn’t see benefit to such engagement.
The thing in the OP is bad. Replying to public comments isn’t. That is all.
No way. Hounding users on an internet site can cause a lot of annoyance and status problems, but it’s not creepy, i.e. it entails no shared threat of bodily harm. People routinely get away with extremely weird behavior on internet groups, even though corresponding behaviors (even something as mild as a heated social confrontation) would get them shunned and ostracized, or perhaps physically assaulted and injured, in a real-world actual community where bodily harm considerations are critical. There is nothing wrong with this persay—it just takes some getting used to.
Hounding someone, even if there are no threats, can turn an online group into no fun for them.
I’m not convinced it’s true that all female fury at male inappropriate attention is based in fear of physical harm. However, large amounts of inappropriate attention can be a huge attention and energy drain—mental cpus are a limited resource.
Yes, that’s why I tend to pull out the magic words: “Please put me on your do-not-call list”. Works like a charm.
I disagree with your definition of “creepy”. However, whether we define the word that way or not, would you agree that it is behaviour worth discouraging?
It is one thing to disagree with a view that someone is expressing. It is quite another to follow that person around, disproportionately, in order to find opportunities to disagree specifically with them, (whether that’s in order to make them feel unwelcome and drive them out, or whether via some twisted logic the hounder feels it gains them dominance or even sees it as courting behaviour).
Just confirming: are you disagreeing because link posited risk of escalation to assault which I agree seems impossible in a purely online context?
I drew the analogy because it called out the toxic effects on a community, and that in many ways the toxicity is not that there was a creeper, but that there is much signalling in their support that has follow-on effects.
Assuming those claimed signalling secondary losses are correct, I don’t see anything specific to an online context that would be immune. The “risk of escalation” discussed there seems severable from its other points.
I am disagreeing because I regard what you call “risk of escalation to assault” (or, more generally: risks of bodily harm and benefits from tightly-knit social cooperation) as a critical determinant of social interaction. It is very hard to meaningfully compare real-world and online contexts, much less regard them as “the exact same scenario”.
(Indeed, I have jokingly argued before that we should totally deprecate and taboo the term “community” as referring to online social groups, since it tends to promote this very kind of ontological confusion.)
As for your question about “toxicity”, let’s just say that this particular discussion has been held already. If anything, LW has seemed to err towards taking complaints about divisive or disruptive behavior more seriously than they otherwise would, especially when outgroup status is a factor.
The obvious solution is to only ban creepy, personal comments.