If the sole determining factor of whether an interaction with a women is desirable is whether they end up attracted to you then, yes, even the most extreme sort of pick up artistry would be unproblematic.
However, if you think that there are other factors that determine whether such an interaction is desirable (such as whether the woman is treated with respect, is not made to feel unpleasant etc) then certain sorts of pick up artistry are extremely distasteful.
For example, let’s hypothetically imagine that women are more attracted to people who make them feel insecure (I take no position on the accuracy of this claim). Sure, it would just be “understanding how women work and adjusting your behaviour to be more attractive to them” if you deliberately made them feel insecure. And sure, this would be no problem if being attractive was the sole determining factor of whether the interaction was desirable. However, if you think women deserve to be treated with respect and not made to feel horrible (presuming not because they are women but just because all humans deserve this) then this interaction is extremely undesirable.
Some discussions of pick up artistry don’t just blur this line but fail to even realise there is a line. To those who think women should be treated with respect, this is extremely concerning.
In general a PUA should always make a woman feel good, otherwise why should she choose to stay with him? Probably women suffer much more through awkward interactions, stalkers, etc...
For example, let’s hypothetically imagine that women are more attracted to people who make them feel insecure
Making a woman feel insecure might work, so does a movie that makes people feel scared(ever enjoyed a good horror movie?). Should we blame a PUA if that works for him?
Beautiful women will have an edge when negotiating with a man, should we blame her for using this as a tactic?
I’ve decided to write my own post on the subject, feel free to take a look:
In general a PUA should always make a woman feel good, otherwise why should she choose to stay with him?
Human mating interests are not aligned perfectly with the happiness goals of the gene carriers in question. (It so happens that creating mostly positive affect in interactions is usually optimal, but this isn’t entirely consistent and certainly isn’t an inevitable first principle.)
Thanks for a reply. I did take a look at your post but I don’t think it really engages with the points that I make (it engages with arguments that are perhaps superficially similar but importantly distinct)
In general a PUA should always make a woman feel good, otherwise why should she choose to stay with him? Probably women suffer much more through awkward interactions, stalkers, etc...
I have no problems with certain things that one might describe as pick up artistry. My comments are reserved for the things that don’t involve respect for a woman’s welfare (demeaning her, for example). And yes, I’m sure people suffer more through stalkers but that doesn’t set the bar very high.
Making a woman feel insecure might work, so does a movie that makes people feel scared(ever enjoyed a good horror movie?). Should we blame a PUA if that works for him?
If you think that people should care about the welfare of others then yes. I think here we have identified the ultimate source of our disagreement. The fact that you think this is even a question worth asking shows that we have substantially different background assumptions (and this perhaps explains why you find attacks on PU confusing).
ETA: I realise now that it was unclear whether you were asking whether we should blame a PUA for the movie thing or for deliberately making a woman feel insecure. If the first, no (except perhaps in unusual circumstances) as going to a movie doesn’t go against the woman’s welfare presuming she, like many people, finds the fear of a horror movie desirable or finds it to be made up for by other aspects of the movie. If the second, then as per above: yes, I think a person should care about the welfare of the person that they’re picking up.
If the sole determining factor of whether an interaction with a women is desirable is whether they end up attracted to you then, yes, even the most extreme sort of pick up artistry would be unproblematic.
However, if you think that there are other factors that determine whether such an interaction is desirable (such as whether the woman is treated with respect, is not made to feel unpleasant etc) then certain sorts of pick up artistry are extremely distasteful.
That’s the issue. Some people have an ideology that some women’s tastes are distasteful.
That’s the issue. Some people have an ideology that some women’s tastes are distasteful.
It’s a clever line but doesn’t really interact with what I said (which may perhaps have been because I was unclear: I don’t intend to suggest this fact is your fault).
We can think of it another way: what do we think constitutes the welfare of a woman? Presumably we don’t think that it is just that she is attracted to the person she is currently conversing with.
However, if this is the case and if we care about how our interaction with people effect their welfare then the fact that a person’s interaction with a woman makes the woman attracted to them doesn’t entail that the interaction was desirable (because we care about their welfare which is more than just their extent of current attraction).
Note that this need not be a condescending attempt to institute an objective conception of welfare on an unwilling recipient. For example, we might think that a person’s welfare is determined by their own subjective, personally decided upon preferences. Now perhaps a woman has preferences to be attracted to the person they’re talking to (or perhaps not) but presumably they also have preferences to feel good about themselves and a number of other things. Again, then, even taking their self-identified welfare, we can’t presume that an interaction is benefiting a woman’s welfare just because they are attracted to their current conversation partner.
To put it another other way: just because a woman finds herself attracted to a person following an interaction, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t wish that the interaction had been different. So the conversation may fulfill the man’s interests in being attractive but it doesn’t follow from the fact that the woman is attracted to him that it fulfulls the woman’s interests.
Of course, if you think a woman’s welfare is her own problem and an interested man’s only responsibility is to be attractive to the woman then you won’t find this compelling but that attitude is precisely what the problem is (many people think that one should be concerned about the effects of one’s interactions on others’ welfare).
ETA: So to clarify: the claim was not that some women’s tastes are distasteful but rather that a woman’s tastes don’t entirely determine her welfare so we can’t move from a claim that something is in accordance with her tastes to a claim that something is in accordance with her welfare (or, for that matter, her desires, because her tastes in men don’t fully define her desires either)
If you are a car salesman and have a button you can legally press which makes your customer buy a car, you’d press it. Instrumental rationality, no?
If you are a researcher who has a button he can legally press to make that reviewer look upon his submission more favorably, you’d probably press it.
If you are a guy and have a button you can legally press that makes the woman you’re trying to woo fall in love with you, pressing that button would be … bad?
I find it extremely condescending to say you’re responsible with how a woman you just met feels, it’s treating them like a child, not like an adult who can darn well be expected to make her own choices, and turn away from you if she so desires. This of course only applies with the male staying in the legal framework and not exhibiting e.g. stalking behavior (i.e. accept when the woman is turning away).
Of course women have a right to demand respect and to be treated in whatever manner they as individuals desire, just as males have a right to provide that sort of interaction or not to provide that sort of interaction. Externally imposing unwritten rules (other than a legal framework) is infantizing adult agents.
If you are a guy and have a button you can legally press that makes the woman you’re trying to woo fall in love with you, pressing that button would be … bad?
The “good—bad” scale is not the same as “legal—illegal” scale, although in nice societies they correlate positively.
Pressing people’s buttons to make them act against their long-term interests is bad and legal.
(Where “bad” means approximately: “I wouldn’t trust given person to cooperate with me in Prisonners’ Dilemma, so I would consider it rational to defect”.)
(Where “bad” means approximately: “I wouldn’t trust given person to cooperate with me in Prisonners’ Dilemma, so I would consider it rational to defect”.)
Steering a conversation such that the result is in your best interest—but not in the best interest of your conversation partner—is bad, even when both are consenting adults?
If you are a car salesman and have a button you can legally press which makes your costumer buy a car, you’d press it. Instrumental rationality, no?
Instrumental rationality doesn’t get you this far. It gets you this far only if you assume that you care only about selling cars and legality. If you also care about the welfare of others then instrumental rationality will not necessarily tell you to push the button (instrumental rationality isn’t the same thing as not caring about others).
Of course, I don’t expect anyone who doesn’t care about the welfare of others to find any of what I’m saying here compelling. A certain level of common ground is required to have a useful discussion. However, I think most people do care about the welfare of others.
I find it extremely condescending to say you’re responsible with how a woman you just met feels, it’s treating them like a child, not like an adult who can darn well be expected to make her own choices, and turn away from you if she so desires.
There is, of course, a line between compassion and condescension and I agree that it is bad to cross that line. However, I think it’s unreasonable to think that showing the level of concern that I’m talking about here for someone’s welfare is crossing this line. To choose a silly example, it would be undesirable for me to shoot someone for no reason but a selfish desire (I, of course, do not actually have this desire). However, if I didn’t shoot someone for some reason, this would be taking some responsibility for the welfare of others. However, this hardly amounts to treating them like a child. Similarly, not deliberately making a woman feel bad about herself is simply showing compassion and being respectful toward others. There’s no reason to think this amounts to treating someone like a child.
Externally imposing unwritten rules (other than a legal framework) is infantizing adult agents.
I’m not “imposing” rules, unwritten or otherwise. What I am doing is suggesting that insofar as you care about the welfare of others, it is undesirable that you deliberately make people feel bad about themselves. Having a concern for the welfare of others is hardly infantising adults (consider the gun example again: it is not treating someone as an infant to decide not to kill them on the grounds of their welfare).
I find your comment to be quixotic. I live in a sheltered bubble, but apparently not yet so far up the ivory tower.
Whenever you walk into any department store, get a loan to buy a car, a new stereo, or whatever, noone there who’s trying to sell to you is going to care whether that purchase is in your self-interest, or whether you can afford it (other than your ability to pay), other than to make you happy so that you become a repeat customer, which also isn’t a function of the customer’s self interest, just think about tobacco companies.
Whether it’s the educational sector signing you up for non-dischargeable student loans, car loans, new credit cards offered in the mail, or just buying a PC game, noone will inquire as to your actual self-interest. They’ll assume you’re an adult and can do what you darn well please—and your self-interest is your business, not theirs. They can pitch you, and if you listen, it’s your decision and responsibility.
Would you say that the overwhelming majority of modern day society does then not care at all about the welfare of others, just because they allow others to make their own choices, and let them be autonomous regarding their own self-interest?
The infantizing part is saying “I don’t think women are capable of disengaging from a negative conversation, therefore they ought to be protected since their own agency doesn’t suffice. There must be rules protecting them since they apparently cannot be trusted to make their own correct choices.”
I don’t think further conversation on this topic is going to be useful for either of us. I presume we both accept that we have some responsibilities for the welfare of others and that sometimes we can consider the welfare of others without being infantilising (for example, I presume we both presume that shooting someone for fun would be in violation of these responsibilities).
Clearly, you draw the line at a very different place to me but beyond that I’m not sure there’s much productive to be said.
I will note, however, that my claim is not about doubting the capability of women nor about “protecting” women in some special sense that goes beyond general compassion. It’s about respect for the welfare of other people.
Other than that, I think this conversation has reached the end of its useful life so will leave things at that.
If the sole determining factor of whether an interaction with a women is desirable is whether they end up attracted to you then, yes, even the most extreme sort of pick up artistry would be unproblematic.
However, if you think that there are other factors that determine whether such an interaction is desirable (such as whether the woman is treated with respect, is not made to feel unpleasant etc) then certain sorts of pick up artistry are extremely distasteful.
For example, let’s hypothetically imagine that women are more attracted to people who make them feel insecure (I take no position on the accuracy of this claim). Sure, it would just be “understanding how women work and adjusting your behaviour to be more attractive to them” if you deliberately made them feel insecure. And sure, this would be no problem if being attractive was the sole determining factor of whether the interaction was desirable. However, if you think women deserve to be treated with respect and not made to feel horrible (presuming not because they are women but just because all humans deserve this) then this interaction is extremely undesirable.
Some discussions of pick up artistry don’t just blur this line but fail to even realise there is a line. To those who think women should be treated with respect, this is extremely concerning.
In general a PUA should always make a woman feel good, otherwise why should she choose to stay with him? Probably women suffer much more through awkward interactions, stalkers, etc...
Making a woman feel insecure might work, so does a movie that makes people feel scared(ever enjoyed a good horror movie?). Should we blame a PUA if that works for him?
Beautiful women will have an edge when negotiating with a man, should we blame her for using this as a tactic?
I’ve decided to write my own post on the subject, feel free to take a look:
http://lesswrong.com/r/discussion/lw/h6l/pick_up_artistspuas_my_view/
Human mating interests are not aligned perfectly with the happiness goals of the gene carriers in question. (It so happens that creating mostly positive affect in interactions is usually optimal, but this isn’t entirely consistent and certainly isn’t an inevitable first principle.)
Thanks for a reply. I did take a look at your post but I don’t think it really engages with the points that I make (it engages with arguments that are perhaps superficially similar but importantly distinct)
I have no problems with certain things that one might describe as pick up artistry. My comments are reserved for the things that don’t involve respect for a woman’s welfare (demeaning her, for example). And yes, I’m sure people suffer more through stalkers but that doesn’t set the bar very high.
If you think that people should care about the welfare of others then yes. I think here we have identified the ultimate source of our disagreement. The fact that you think this is even a question worth asking shows that we have substantially different background assumptions (and this perhaps explains why you find attacks on PU confusing).
ETA: I realise now that it was unclear whether you were asking whether we should blame a PUA for the movie thing or for deliberately making a woman feel insecure. If the first, no (except perhaps in unusual circumstances) as going to a movie doesn’t go against the woman’s welfare presuming she, like many people, finds the fear of a horror movie desirable or finds it to be made up for by other aspects of the movie. If the second, then as per above: yes, I think a person should care about the welfare of the person that they’re picking up.
That’s the issue. Some people have an ideology that some women’s tastes are distasteful.
It’s a clever line but doesn’t really interact with what I said (which may perhaps have been because I was unclear: I don’t intend to suggest this fact is your fault).
We can think of it another way: what do we think constitutes the welfare of a woman? Presumably we don’t think that it is just that she is attracted to the person she is currently conversing with.
However, if this is the case and if we care about how our interaction with people effect their welfare then the fact that a person’s interaction with a woman makes the woman attracted to them doesn’t entail that the interaction was desirable (because we care about their welfare which is more than just their extent of current attraction).
Note that this need not be a condescending attempt to institute an objective conception of welfare on an unwilling recipient. For example, we might think that a person’s welfare is determined by their own subjective, personally decided upon preferences. Now perhaps a woman has preferences to be attracted to the person they’re talking to (or perhaps not) but presumably they also have preferences to feel good about themselves and a number of other things. Again, then, even taking their self-identified welfare, we can’t presume that an interaction is benefiting a woman’s welfare just because they are attracted to their current conversation partner.
To put it another other way: just because a woman finds herself attracted to a person following an interaction, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t wish that the interaction had been different. So the conversation may fulfill the man’s interests in being attractive but it doesn’t follow from the fact that the woman is attracted to him that it fulfulls the woman’s interests.
Of course, if you think a woman’s welfare is her own problem and an interested man’s only responsibility is to be attractive to the woman then you won’t find this compelling but that attitude is precisely what the problem is (many people think that one should be concerned about the effects of one’s interactions on others’ welfare).
ETA: So to clarify: the claim was not that some women’s tastes are distasteful but rather that a woman’s tastes don’t entirely determine her welfare so we can’t move from a claim that something is in accordance with her tastes to a claim that something is in accordance with her welfare (or, for that matter, her desires, because her tastes in men don’t fully define her desires either)
If you are a car salesman and have a button you can legally press which makes your customer buy a car, you’d press it. Instrumental rationality, no?
If you are a researcher who has a button he can legally press to make that reviewer look upon his submission more favorably, you’d probably press it.
If you are a guy and have a button you can legally press that makes the woman you’re trying to woo fall in love with you, pressing that button would be … bad?
I find it extremely condescending to say you’re responsible with how a woman you just met feels, it’s treating them like a child, not like an adult who can darn well be expected to make her own choices, and turn away from you if she so desires. This of course only applies with the male staying in the legal framework and not exhibiting e.g. stalking behavior (i.e. accept when the woman is turning away).
Of course women have a right to demand respect and to be treated in whatever manner they as individuals desire, just as males have a right to provide that sort of interaction or not to provide that sort of interaction. Externally imposing unwritten rules (other than a legal framework) is infantizing adult agents.
The “good—bad” scale is not the same as “legal—illegal” scale, although in nice societies they correlate positively.
Pressing people’s buttons to make them act against their long-term interests is bad and legal.
(Where “bad” means approximately: “I wouldn’t trust given person to cooperate with me in Prisonners’ Dilemma, so I would consider it rational to defect”.)
Upvoted for this alone.
Steering a conversation such that the result is in your best interest—but not in the best interest of your conversation partner—is bad, even when both are consenting adults?
If you care about both parties being consenting adults, you’ll dislike it if one party tries to undermine the clarity of the other person’s consent.
No and no. And I think less of those who answer in the affirmative.
It depends on why the customer wouldn’t buy the car unless I pressed the button.
Instrumental rationality doesn’t get you this far. It gets you this far only if you assume that you care only about selling cars and legality. If you also care about the welfare of others then instrumental rationality will not necessarily tell you to push the button (instrumental rationality isn’t the same thing as not caring about others).
Of course, I don’t expect anyone who doesn’t care about the welfare of others to find any of what I’m saying here compelling. A certain level of common ground is required to have a useful discussion. However, I think most people do care about the welfare of others.
There is, of course, a line between compassion and condescension and I agree that it is bad to cross that line. However, I think it’s unreasonable to think that showing the level of concern that I’m talking about here for someone’s welfare is crossing this line. To choose a silly example, it would be undesirable for me to shoot someone for no reason but a selfish desire (I, of course, do not actually have this desire). However, if I didn’t shoot someone for some reason, this would be taking some responsibility for the welfare of others. However, this hardly amounts to treating them like a child. Similarly, not deliberately making a woman feel bad about herself is simply showing compassion and being respectful toward others. There’s no reason to think this amounts to treating someone like a child.
I’m not “imposing” rules, unwritten or otherwise. What I am doing is suggesting that insofar as you care about the welfare of others, it is undesirable that you deliberately make people feel bad about themselves. Having a concern for the welfare of others is hardly infantising adults (consider the gun example again: it is not treating someone as an infant to decide not to kill them on the grounds of their welfare).
I find your comment to be quixotic. I live in a sheltered bubble, but apparently not yet so far up the ivory tower.
Whenever you walk into any department store, get a loan to buy a car, a new stereo, or whatever, noone there who’s trying to sell to you is going to care whether that purchase is in your self-interest, or whether you can afford it (other than your ability to pay), other than to make you happy so that you become a repeat customer, which also isn’t a function of the customer’s self interest, just think about tobacco companies.
Whether it’s the educational sector signing you up for non-dischargeable student loans, car loans, new credit cards offered in the mail, or just buying a PC game, noone will inquire as to your actual self-interest. They’ll assume you’re an adult and can do what you darn well please—and your self-interest is your business, not theirs. They can pitch you, and if you listen, it’s your decision and responsibility.
Would you say that the overwhelming majority of modern day society does then not care at all about the welfare of others, just because they allow others to make their own choices, and let them be autonomous regarding their own self-interest?
The infantizing part is saying “I don’t think women are capable of disengaging from a negative conversation, therefore they ought to be protected since their own agency doesn’t suffice. There must be rules protecting them since they apparently cannot be trusted to make their own correct choices.”
I don’t think further conversation on this topic is going to be useful for either of us. I presume we both accept that we have some responsibilities for the welfare of others and that sometimes we can consider the welfare of others without being infantilising (for example, I presume we both presume that shooting someone for fun would be in violation of these responsibilities).
Clearly, you draw the line at a very different place to me but beyond that I’m not sure there’s much productive to be said.
I will note, however, that my claim is not about doubting the capability of women nor about “protecting” women in some special sense that goes beyond general compassion. It’s about respect for the welfare of other people.
Other than that, I think this conversation has reached the end of its useful life so will leave things at that.