Didn’t like the post then, still don’t like it in 2024. I think there are defensible points interwoven with assumptions and stereotypes.
First: generalizes from personal experiences that are not universal. I think a lot of people don’t have this or don’t struggle with this or find it worth it, and the piece assumes everyone feels the way the author feels.
Second: the thing it describes is a bias, and I don’t think the essay realizes this.
Okay, part of the thing is that this doesn’t make a case or acknowledge this romantic factor as being different from, like, friendship. Like, in the people-at-work case, you might also do someone a favor at work because you like them as a buddy, which is not necessarily the same as whether they’re a good worker or it’s a strategic thing for you to do, or whatever—you’re inclined to give your friends special treatment. Even in straight same-gender groups, people will end up being friends and having outgroups.
Anyway, you have to be careful reasoning out of “what your in-built stereotypes say”. This is sometimes relevant information, totally. But A) your in-built stereotypes are not everyone else’s in-built stereotypes, even within your culture, and B) this is reasoning from the territory, not the map. Are they true? In some of the cases given in this piece, it matters if they’re true.
Like, the thing being described here is a bias, a flaw in the lens. “Having to navigate around possible sexual dynamics with other people makes it harder to do regular communication with them” is a thing that’ll make you less able to reason and less effective. (Especially if it still fires strongly in cases like “this woman is at this event about an unrelated topic, with a partner, and so is probably not available for dating.”) I don’t begrudge the author for having it. I think it’s really common. God knows my own best judgment has failed me before in the face of very pretty people.
But I like this community for usually not giving up on matters of self-improvement and epistemics. Even if you don’t prioritize it, you’re at least recognizing it and not throwing it out. It’s very disconcerting to read “I notice my brain does extra work when I talk with women… wouldn’t it be easier if society were radically altered so that I didn’t have to talk with women?” Like, what? And there’s no way you or anyone else can become more rational about this? This barrier to ideal communication with 50% of people is insurmountable? It’s worth giving up on this one? Hello?
I get that the author views this as sort of a series of tenuous hypotheticals and doesn’t necessarily stand by these stances and was just putting it out there, which is respectable. I think it’s wrong and so tenuous as to be unhelpful.
Overall: bad takes, did have a solid 20 seconds of mixed fun and horror imagining this totally-unsexist society where straight men and women are kept in polite segregated groups, and 10% of people are in fringe situations—stable lesbian gay-male duos who must rely on each other, the bisexuals and the nonbinary people wandering the earth alone, the asexuals reigning supreme; incorruptible, masters of all domains.
It’s very disconcerting to read “I notice my brain does extra work when I talk with women… wouldn’t it be easier if society were radically altered so that I didn’t have to talk with women?” Like, what? And there’s no way you or anyone else can become more rational about this? This barrier to ideal communication with 50% of people is insurmountable? It’s worth giving up on this one? Hello?
Nah. I could have been more precise while spitballing. (For some definition of “could”. I don’t know how to be freeform playful/creative while carefully scrutinizing each detail of what I say for precision and accuracy.) But I meant all that more in the spirit of “Huh, I wonder if evolution did something like this and we’ve been assuming it didn’t. That’d make some sense of why some of our social reform efforts go wonky in these particular ways.”
I don’t know what would be good for us to collectively do. I aspire to have good questions. Good answers would be nice, but I think those mostly fall out of seeking and pondering good questions.
Didn’t like the post then, still don’t like it in 2024. I think there are defensible points interwoven with assumptions and stereotypes.
First: generalizes from personal experiences that are not universal. I think a lot of people don’t have this or don’t struggle with this or find it worth it, and the piece assumes everyone feels the way the author feels.
Second: the thing it describes is a bias, and I don’t think the essay realizes this.
Okay, part of the thing is that this doesn’t make a case or acknowledge this romantic factor as being different from, like, friendship. Like, in the people-at-work case, you might also do someone a favor at work because you like them as a buddy, which is not necessarily the same as whether they’re a good worker or it’s a strategic thing for you to do, or whatever—you’re inclined to give your friends special treatment. Even in straight same-gender groups, people will end up being friends and having outgroups.
Anyway, you have to be careful reasoning out of “what your in-built stereotypes say”. This is sometimes relevant information, totally. But A) your in-built stereotypes are not everyone else’s in-built stereotypes, even within your culture, and B) this is reasoning from the territory, not the map. Are they true? In some of the cases given in this piece, it matters if they’re true.
Like, the thing being described here is a bias, a flaw in the lens. “Having to navigate around possible sexual dynamics with other people makes it harder to do regular communication with them” is a thing that’ll make you less able to reason and less effective. (Especially if it still fires strongly in cases like “this woman is at this event about an unrelated topic, with a partner, and so is probably not available for dating.”) I don’t begrudge the author for having it. I think it’s really common. God knows my own best judgment has failed me before in the face of very pretty people.
But I like this community for usually not giving up on matters of self-improvement and epistemics. Even if you don’t prioritize it, you’re at least recognizing it and not throwing it out. It’s very disconcerting to read “I notice my brain does extra work when I talk with women… wouldn’t it be easier if society were radically altered so that I didn’t have to talk with women?” Like, what? And there’s no way you or anyone else can become more rational about this? This barrier to ideal communication with 50% of people is insurmountable? It’s worth giving up on this one? Hello?
I get that the author views this as sort of a series of tenuous hypotheticals and doesn’t necessarily stand by these stances and was just putting it out there, which is respectable. I think it’s wrong and so tenuous as to be unhelpful.
Overall: bad takes, did have a solid 20 seconds of mixed fun and horror imagining this totally-unsexist society where straight men and women are kept in polite segregated groups, and 10% of people are in fringe situations—stable lesbian gay-male duos who must rely on each other, the bisexuals and the nonbinary people wandering the earth alone, the asexuals reigning supreme; incorruptible, masters of all domains.
I was not proposing that.
Fair enough. You did write
and
which made it sound like you thought this would be a good idea.
Nah. I could have been more precise while spitballing. (For some definition of “could”. I don’t know how to be freeform playful/creative while carefully scrutinizing each detail of what I say for precision and accuracy.) But I meant all that more in the spirit of “Huh, I wonder if evolution did something like this and we’ve been assuming it didn’t. That’d make some sense of why some of our social reform efforts go wonky in these particular ways.”
I don’t know what would be good for us to collectively do. I aspire to have good questions. Good answers would be nice, but I think those mostly fall out of seeking and pondering good questions.